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Do You Feel "abandoned" By Family And/or Friends

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I just spent the better part of an hour reading through your thread and it was helpful to me to learn that I'm not alone. We lost our 15 year old son, our youngest, to suicide 7 weeks ago. The first week was so full of friends and family that it was overwhelming. The next week or two was filled with cards and text messages and the like. Then suddenly it was week 3 and nothing. Not a sound. It's been a month and my phone never rings, my texts never beep, my facebook messenger went quiet. Even coworkers avoid me like I have a contagious virus. I had no idea that I would lose all of my friends and family in this stigma and situation. Now it's just my husband and I, with our adult kids (6 of them) texting a few times a week to 'check in' with us. This is by far the absolute hardest thing we have ever done, and probably (hopefully) ever will do and our support system is nowhere to be found. The silence is deafening and is really overshadowing everything else. Even my very best friends are 'giving me space' that I surely never asked for. It's adding insult to injury, truly. 200 people said they'd be here for me, no matter what, no matter the time, but apparently not. I'm stubbornly not asking because I don't have any idea what to ask for. I want them to call and ask how I'm doing, invite us to dinner, or show up and drink a cup of coffee with me. I want them to bring over casserole or a cake and tell me I'm in their prayers. But I can't ask for acts of kindness, because that makes it charity. And I don't want charity. I want my friends back.

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ctwilki,

I am so sorry to hear about your son. We had someone here whose partner commit suicide on Christmas. It's one of the hardest things anyone can go through. I'm sure Marty will be here shortly and will post some helpful links to you.

I, too, experienced what you say, with everyone disappearing after the funeral. My sisters are still in my life but all of our friends disappeared. For me, having lost my spouse, some people dropped me because I'm no longer part of a "couple". But some are just uncomfortable, don't know what to say, or don't want to be around "the aftermath of death"...granted, it's not very "fun" or uplifting. However, you'd think they'd stop and think how they'd feel in like circumstances! I don't hear from my husband's family except his grown daughter. (He was one of 11 kids and his dad is still alive). Two of my closest friends did not even bother attending his funeral! And this is a man who was well liked, his funeral was well attended...just not by my friends. ??? Some of my church continued to care, some did not. It surprised me.

Have you tried telling any of them how you feel?

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My dear ctwilki, I am shocked and saddened to read of the death of your precious son by suicide, and I can only imagine the horror for you and your husband. I'm so sorry that is the reason you came to us, but so gratified to know that you've managed to find your way to this warm and caring place. Please continue to come here and let us walk this path with you. You are not alone in this journey.

I suppose I could come up with a half dozen or more reasons why it seems as if your friends and family members have abandoned you, but no explanation would suffice, and none would make you feel any less alone. We live in a death-denying culture where few of us know what to say or to do for anyone whose loved one has died, much less when the circumstances are as tragic as yours. Not only have you lost your precious child, but this was a death by suicide. It is a parent's worst nightmare. And to think that you can find your way through all of this without support is not only unrealistic but unnecessary. Support is out there and available to you, but you must be willing to find it, and then to reach out and ask for it.

Nowadays there are many resources aimed at parents whose child has died, and more specifically at parents who have survived a child's death by suicide. Such resources will put you in touch with others who more readily understand what you are going through, who can help you feel less isolated and alone, and who can help you to understand and better manage your own reactions to this unspeakable tragedy.

I invite you to read these articles and explore some of the links connected to them. While some may seem to have a different focus, each of these articles contains information that is relevant to your circumstances too:

Surviving Your Child's Suicide

Guilty, Your Honor: The Burden of Guilt After a Suicide

Grief Support for Survivors of Suicide

Surviving A Spouse's Suicide

Surviving A Child's Homicide

Toward Healing: After the Suicide of My Child

Grief Due to Complicated Death

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Yes, some act like it's contagious, like they'll catch it if they entertain death's door (us). It truly is a fault of our culture.

Thank you, so much, Marty, for the links!

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Dear ctwilki,

There is no hurt worse than the one you are suffering. I lost my first spouse to suicide, and more recently, a special-to-me nephew. I understand your not wanting to ask for the support you need, yet this is the very thing you will need to do. We think people should reach out to us and know what we need without us reaching out to them for help, but many people simply don't know what we need, or how to go about saying what is in their heart. Some are fearful of saying the wrong thing, and some don't know how to react to our "meltdowns." It is also true that some just don't care enough to get involved. We have no choice but to accept this. If you can find just one person with whom you can bond, and who will walk closely through this tragedy with you, that might be enough and might be better than having several lukewarm friends who had rather dodge you than talk about your loss.

Suicide is difficult to understand (can't truly) for those of us who have suffered due to it, and sometimes impossible for those who have not been touched by it. When I went to order flowers for my nephew's funeral (to be sent to near New Orleans from CA), my florist's husband told me that my nephew was a selfish, insensitive person, and said several mean things about him based completely on his having taken his own life. He had never heard of my nephew before that day, so did not know that Joe was a most unselfish, sensitive person. I was stunned speechless (well, not quite speechless. I did manage to say, "Glen, you are an idiot" before I left and burst into a flood of tears). He and his wife have been friends of ours for a few decades. I had to leave without finishing placing my order. I wrote him a letter to tell him that I chose to forgive his ignorance and unkindness to me, but what he said had hurt me badly. I received no response, nor did I expect one.

Part of the reason I am a part of this forum is that I am lonely due to missing friends who have either died or moved off of this mountain to be near medical facilities and/or their children. We aren't truly isolated, for we do have neighbors. Most work, or are week-enders/vacationers, and are not home much of the time. We rarely see them, for we "travel in different circles." Most are younger and are busy rearing their children (old ones generally move off the hill due to our snowy winters).

We are most surprised to learn that unless we are physically able to attend church, our fellow members don't remember we exist (yep, that was a whine you heard from me). Of course, many of our friends are no longer there, and new people with young families fill the pews (including ours!). We've been active members (held offices) of the same church for over thirty years. Attending is becomig nearly impossible. Because I'm honest, I'll admit I've treated others in this same neglectful way through ignorance and being busy with my own life during our years of travel and my years of being Caregiver for my mother. I'm not proud of my neglectful behavior. I understand from both sides of the fence. Understanding comes with age and experience. Understanding doesn't ease the pain of loneliness, isolation, or rejection though. It does cause me to want to help those I can help now.

Try to ask outright for what you need. Let people know you had rather them say "something" to you even if they accidentally say the wrong thing. If you let ten people know what you need, expect only one of the ten to respond favorably (that's just a number, for I don't know how many; people get busy with their own lives, perhaps even pray for you, and go on with their own lives). So what if it's charity? Truly, I hate asking for charity. I'd rather eat a bug than to ask for charity, but John the Baptist ate locusts, so eating a bug or two might not be so bad, especially if you batter and Southern fry them.

Some of us here on this forum will be here with and for you for as long as you want. Some are healing enough to be here less, and to include and blend other social activities with their daily routines and with being here. This is right, good, and encouraging to others, and I believe a purpose of the forum. Some will stay here and help the new grievers, and for these Blessings from God, I am deeply appreciative. I know having friends on the forum isn't like having your friends you know already call and drop by to see you, but talking and listening here---and making new friends here, is a good thing, a true blessing. You are welcome here. I offer you my friendship, and I know others here will also. My husband has some serious and scary health issues, and I am in anticipatory grief. I expect to be here a long time (unless I say the wrong thing and get myself in trouble).

Warm hugs,

Carrie

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Dear ctwilki,

I read with sadness about the suicide of your young son. I want you to know that we are here to support you and love you as you share your story with us. I do not know why people start to "disappear" after a death except that they go about the busyness of living. I don't think we do it intentionally (yes, I have been guilty of this) only we don't think about the needs of the one sitting in sorrow.

I became much more aware of this after the death of my dear husband, Jim.

I also learned that I needed to ask for what I needed because others really did not know the extent of loneliness I lived in.

Please know that here on this forum you can talk about your son and your feelings and there will always be someone ready to listen.

Wishing you peace and sending you hugs.

Anne

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Kay,

Thats great! My best friend is visiting from Japan in May and I get to see her so I can share your joy! I definitely have overisolated myself. I feel like since my dad died, I have a chip on my shoulder and Im done trying to be friends because Im not good at making quality friends apparently. "I want to crawl into myself" is probably the best line ever and I completely agree. Thats great though! Im trying to go out more for social reasons but its hard lol and thats true! I havent moved out yet so I can move but dont want to ;)

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ctwilki,

I am so sorry to hear about your son and I can definitely relate to feeling alone and not wanting to ask for help from people because it is charity but it also seems fake. I think maybe you should just reach out and tell them how you feel and explain, you dont need them to counsel you because we all struggle with grief and all the unanswered questions but it would be nice for someone to BE THERE. To let you know that you arent alone.

Kayc and LadyCarrie are so right. It is the fault of our culture and people just dont understand and want to understand so grief does help weed out the bad people in your life and find the real good ones. We are all here and this site has been my saving grace!

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Guest

Thank you all for the encouraging words and helpful links. I READ THEM ALL! We have attending a compassionate friends meeting and an SOS meeting, and I (alone) have begun one-on-one counseling with a grief counselor. My 2nd appointment is tomorrow night.

It gets me quite upset when I add up the number of people disappointing me right now, so I try not to linger on it because I do appreciate the ones that are there for me. The list doesn't extend past our kids though, and one of my brothers. Sadly.

One of my close friends somehow got left out of the loop and didn't learn of my son's death until 2 weeks after. She called me bawling and said she was coming right over, and that I'll have a hard time getting rid of her because she knows I really need the comfort in this awful time. She never showed. She never called again. At first I panicked thinking something happened to her like a car accident, but then I saw her posting pictures of her granddaughter and herself about 3 hours after our talk. I still haven't heard from her, a month later.

My best friend in the whole world for the last 22 years finally called me to have dinner last week, after not calling for 4 weeks. At dinner she told me that she mainly called because a mutual friend saw me shopping and thought I looked like I'd lost a lot of weight and was concerned, and now that she sees I'm ok she feels better. So the dinner was for her worry - about me, yes, but not for us - nor for me. I didn't say anything. I wish that I had.

I'm not totally abandoned even though I feel like it. After writing yesterday I decided to look through my texts and recent calls to see if I'm imagining things.

I have one good friend that calls every day to check in, but her only question is 'how are you?'. After I answer, long or short, she says ok, I'll call again tomorrow. It feels like a suicide watch more than concern, but when it doesn't happen because she's busy I honestly don't miss it.

I do realize that my feelings of abandonment are mainly coming from my son suddenly leaving without a goodbye nor explanation, so I may be exaggerating my abandonment emotion and piling it onto everyone, but I might not be. I'm not sure. I'm still in the fog we all know too well.

I did leave out someone to be grateful for, and that's the teenagers. My son's friends, 2 of them, have consistently contacted us at least weekly. They are very honest and open with their emotions (and sweet), and for that I'm surprised and grateful. I let them go into his closet and choose 3 shirts each that they made them think of Matthew, and some of his artwork. I don't know if they wear them, but I suspect that they do. I haven't asked.

My son's football coach just called me for a picture and a blurb for the memoriam page they are making for him for the yearbook. I didn't see that coming. I think I'll ask one of our daughters to write the blurb. She wrote a blog about him a few days ago.

Thank you all for reaching out. I'll be back tomorrow.

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Hi,

I know it's not the same, but we will be here waiting for you. We all care that you are hurting so badly. Come back and let us know how and what you are doing. You've definitely reason to feel hurt by the behavior of the people you counted on. I don't know why people tend to avoid grieving people. I hope I don't ever do that again, even if I accidentally say the wrong thing at the wrong time. I think the private counseling will likely help you because it's one-on-one. It has helped me. ❤️

Carrie

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I hope you'll practice articulating yourself to these people. It may not change them or anything that's happened, but it might make YOU feel better! I learned to really stand up for myself and voice myself when George died. When friends disappear, you might not be able to change their way of responding, but at least you can bring conviction to them. Personally, if I had a friend say they were coming right over blah blah blah, and then they never showed, and I saw them on FB posting about their grandkids, I think I'd post "still waiting for you to show up..." I can't tell you how mad I feel on your behalf! Grrr!

At least you can post how you feel here and I hope that restores some of your sense of power. We all know how it feels and care.

Maybe you should write the name of everyone who has hurt you by not being there for you or responding inappropriately down on a piece of paper and then burn it...let it go. Time to make some new friends! I know, easier said than done, I need some too. :)

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I am SO with Kay regarding the "friend" who said she would be right over. I am angry toward her on your behalf also (would you like Kay and me to take her to coffee and have a talk with her? I'm sure we could set her straight for you.). You've really lost no friend in her; you've only learned that she is not a friend to be relied on.

I have a friend who said that if Jerry (husband) and I ever need her that she would be here "with bells on." I trusted her, and felt safe knowing she was nearby, and was eager to help. One morning when Jerry was bleeding profusely from his nose, I called her to ask if she would take us to ER. She responded, "Oh, my God, Carrie! I have a meeting!" She couldn't help us, because she was meeting with her sorority sisters. I know now the real meaning of a "fair weather friend." I needed to call several people before finding someone not too busy to help. Jerry went to ER, and from that hospital to a bigger one several miles away from our home where he stayed for five weeks.

It took some time--and a lot of prayer--to work through my feelings to acceptance of how it is with my fair-weather friend and with people in general during times of need or grief. It's a waste of our life and energy to try to make it different. We can change only ourself and how we react to the insensitivity of self-centered, insensitive people.

It's too soon for you to not be as hurt as you are. Do whatever it takes to rid yourself of your justified hurt and anger (short of hurting someone, of course). If, like Kay suggested, burning the names of the people who hurt you helps you let the hurt go, then burn their names.

It will likely take a while to work through to forgiveness, but if you can, you might find the peace you are so desperately needing if you can forgive. I'm judging only on myself and the hurts I've been subjected to, and ones much, much bigger than the one regarding my neighbor whose sorority sisters are so meaningful to her. I felt emotional torture for years due to deep justified hurt and anger, but I'm the one who was injured by my hurt and anger; the objects of my hurt and anger weren't affected by it at all. Forgiveness doesn't mean that their actions are all right, or that you ever have to like them again. The forgiving is more for YOUR benefit, so you yourself can heal and concentrate on people who love you and things that can help you.

You will find people here on the forum who understand your feelings, and we understand because we have both felt pain, and have accidentally hurt others at times by continuing with our lives while our friends suffered what we suffer now. We learn from our own pain, and are thereby able to reach out to others who hurt. In this way, our pain is not wasted. You will weather this awful storm, and will be able to help others, because you know the deepest of pain and grief. Neither you nor we asked for this education and wisdom, but we can determine to use it for good.

I hope I haven't said anything that I shouldn't have said, for I just want so badly to comfort you.

Blessings and hugs,

New friend, Carrie

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Ct,

I definitely dont think the abadonment came from just your son leaving but definitely from your friends. When my dad died, I know it was from all the people not helping me and sticking in there for me. I would be furious with that friend and you know, since the death of my dad, I have a chip on my shoulder and I too learned to stand up for myself to Hell with those who dont care but its probably not the healthiest way to deal with it.

I did a one on one grief counseling and I found it to really help. It was great because she just listened and once I was done gabbing she would help me find ways to let it out or comfort me. One thing we went through was forgiveness. Like Carrie says, it doesnt mean its right but forgiveness is an action. If you say you are forgiving them, the action and feeling will follow. Why dont you try making the list of those people like Kay suggested, say you forgive them (outloud) and only if you feel ready too of course and burn it. That has helped me with some of the pain. Then you say goodbye to them afterwards. Its more of a goodbye to a feelings rather than the person, unless you want to end the relationship.

That has definitely helped me as my brother really angered me after my dad died. When I was hurting he would tell me I wasnt the only one who lost someone but he never shed a single tear or expressed sadness. We have a 20 yr age gap so you think he would know a thing or too on comforting people. he knew my dad was dying but never came up to see him.

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Dear Shari,

You have such wisdom for one so young. I'm sorry you are learning wisdom in the "School of Hard Knocks," yet I'm so proud of you for reaching out to help others with what you've learned. You are not wasting your pain, but are learning early to use it for good. I've read your story, and I've listened to you as you've come such a long way. May God bless you, watch over you as you grow, and may He keep you strong and safe. ❤️

Carrie

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Hello ctwilki,

So sorry to read of your sad loss. You have my deepest sympathies. As others have said you are amongst friends here who will support you. People who've not experienced the pain of grief have no idea do they. You certainly discover who your true friends are too. I pray you find some degree of comfort and understanding in these pages. I certainly have.

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Carrie,

Thank you for such kind words! ^_^ I really appreciate them! Sometimes I think thats the best way to learn because that has really helped me grow as a person. Many of these people on this site have helped me through some of my darkest days and I want to return the favor! May God bless you as well :) you are such a kind person!

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I have to agree with Carrie! You have learned so much through all that you have been through, you are very astute and wise, especially for such a young person. We do sometimes grow in our darkest hour, I have seen that in my own life.

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A little background:

I met my wife online in 1999. We fell in love and she left her life and family in Illinois to live with me in Maryland in 2000. We became husband and wife in 2003. She also had a 3 year old daughter that I took care of like my own. I've always felt like her family in Illinois (mom, sisters etc.) resented me for "taking members of their family" away even though she went back there a couple times a year. The truth is that my wife Tammy wanted a better life filled with love and she certainly had that from me. Tammy suffered with many medical issues, lost her job in 2007 and went on disability. I became her caregiver as well. I would do anything for my Tammy! Tammy always told me that no one loved her like I did and of course I was crazy in love with her.

Sadly and shockingly my wife died on March 6, 2015 at 45 years old.

The funeral was held back in Illinois and she was buried next to her beloved dad. I stayed with my sister in law for the five days I was out there and they treated me just fine...

However, since I've been back in Maryland, they haven't even attempted to contact me. Even though they said "stay in touch". Tammy's daughter who I loved like my own, wants no contact with me. I texted her sister a few days ago and asked how everybody was doing. She said "ok" and I fully expected her to ask how I was holding up. She never even asked.

I've never been particularly close with my siblings and after the initial flurry of calls from them after Tammy's passing, there hasn't been much emotional support. Matter of fact they don't understand my deep, deep grief and think I need to sort of "get over it".

So yes, like this topic says, I do feel abandoned by family. Certainly no one understands what I'm going through and honestly it feels like they don't care.

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mittam99,

I am so sorry for your loss, it is very, very fresh, and of course you feel abandoned if people who are supposed to love you don't even ask after you. No way can you be over it at this point...as a matter of fact, we NEVER "get over it", instead, we learn to cope with it, but nothing is ever the same again after a loss like this. Do you still have your stepdaughter with you?

I know it isn't much consolation, but your family and hers cannot possibly understand your loss since they have not been through the loss of their spouse. It affects every aspect of your being! She was someone in your everyday life, it's not the same as someone who sees her a couple of times a year, even if they have shared history.

It could be they don't know what to say to you. People sometimes act like death is contagious and avoid it at all costs...you are a reminder of that loss, so they avoid you too. I'm sorry, it's really unfair and not what you need!

You have found a very caring site and I hope you will come here and post anything you're feeling and experiencing. We'll be there to walk through this journey with you if you want us to.

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Do you still have your stepdaughter with you?

kayc... no she went back to live Illinois when she graduated high school last June. If you'd allow me, the situation with my stepdaughter was a touchy one...

Katie started living with me when she was 3 1/2. Her biological father left Tammy when she found out Tammy was pregnant. He clearly was not a very good man. Truth is, I'm the only dad Katie has ever known. And while our relationship started out slowly we grew to love each other. At one point she made my nickname "sweet daddy sunshine". :)

Unfortunately, throughout the years, Tammy's side of the family in Illinois sort of influenced Katie about coming back to Illinois. They knew that Tammy wanted to stay with her hubby (me) in Maryland so they sort of "worked on" Katie.

And, for many years I began hearing how "wonderful Illinois and how horrible Maryland is" from Katie. It wasn't pleasant. Katie's becoming a teenager coincided with Tammy's lupus getting worse and Tammy's health started a downward slide. Sadly Katie became very intolerant of her mom's illness, constantly reminding her "she wasn't like other moms" and that she didn't do the fun things she used to with Katie.

For my part, this thoroughly upset me. Afterall, Tammy didn't ask to become sick. So what basically happened was that I told Katie she shouldn't be so disrespectful to her mom and of course Katie and my relationship went downhill after that. I truly believe that Katie's attitude was toxic and it definitely left her mom in tears often.

When Katie left this past June (even though Tammy missed her daughter) honestly... it felt like a cloud had lifted and it looked like things were going to get easier (at least there would be less stress).

But as we all know, things can happen in the blink of an eye and Tammy passed away in March.

We had so many plans for our happy future.

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Sometimes I think teenagers become their unloveliest so that we won't have such a hard time when they leave home. They don't all go through that, but enough do to know it's a "stage". I hope as she continues to grow up and mature it will make it possible for you two to have a good relationship and remember the good times. You have been a dad to her, after all.

I'm sorry you all had to go through the Lupus AND Katie's rebellious years at the same time, that's unfortunate. They don't have to out and out rebel to make us feel it, it's more of an asserting themselves and being self-centered...if we stick it out, we can see them through it to the other side, unfortunately, Tammy won't be here for that, but I think she'll know all the same.

I felt the same way when George died...like we were missing out on all our future plans together, it's as if it just cut everything short midway.

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Guest

Thank you all for your kind words of wisdom. I'm reading them all right now. I might try making that list and burning it. It should be easy, just print off my facebook friends list practically. Maybe I should just shut down my account at facebook until they start actually calling me, or not, then make the list. It might not change a thing, as people are so wrapped up in their own lives, and it could make the problem, for me, seem even worse. I don't know.

Right now I have to worry about this week, and it will be a tough one. Tomorrow is my birthday and Friday we drive to Louisiana to see 3 of our kids and our son's gravesite for the first time since the burial in January. It will be a trying week indeed, and I've already begun praying about it. It is Holy Week after all, and I'd rather my thoughts be on the passion instead of my internal struggles and constant grief.

I did have a small success on Saturday. We went to painting with a twist with 2 of our kids (24 and 25 year old girls) as a birthday gift from them to me. It started out rocky because our son that died was an artist and knowing how much he would have loved this had me in tears within 5 minutes of our arrival. But I pulled myself together for their sake and we ended up having a great time. It's so hard to appreciate the here and now some days. But I did succeed and will again.

To Tammy's husband (I didn't catch your name). I am terribly sorry for your loss. My best friend has lupus and is starting a downward spiral recently, so your words got my attention. Your family issues are so familiar to mine. Nobody calls me, nobody shows up, and nobody emails. It's the oddest quiet I've ever experienced, as I've never had an empty nest in my life, and my family lives in Louisiana, while I live in Texas. It's a 7 hour drive between us, but a phone call is cheap and quick right? Even my dad, that has been my total rock throughout my life, seems to be totally on 'silent'. I called him after a month of silence and all he could do was cry and apologize. And now it's been another month of silence from him. It's baffling and painful. I don't have advice for you, as I'm also confused and feeling abandoned, but I can tell you that you are not alone in your predicament. I think we've all seen that wall go up without our permission.

Also, one of my very closest friends (a couple) posted on facebook that they were on their way to a concert yesterday afternoon. Because that's something we have always done together for the last 22 years I was shocked! I sat there for a few minutes and decided that I had to ask why, even if it ruined their night. That news just pushed me into place I hadn't been yet. I was insulted. Yes, insulted. Was my presence something to suddenly avoid? Openly? So I texted them and asked just like this: "Are yall honestly going to see Journey in concert without me? :( " yep, I even put a frown face on it. The only response that I got was "yes mam". I didn't text further. Then this morning I see on facebook lots of fun pictures and selfies from the concert, but a note that it only looked fun, and that it wasn't actually because 'something was weighing on their minds'. Huh.. I don't wonder what that was. Yes, I feel a little guilty of possibly ruining their fun mood, but at this point I feel like it's just words, the photos don't show anything but joy. And no, my phone still hasn't rung with an explanation.

This couple is invited to my birthday dinner (at a restaurant) tomorrow night, of course, coordinated by my husband, because yes they have been my closest friends for over 20 years. I'm wondering if they will come at all. Maybe I'll get a texted excuse. Maybe they'll show up and tell me their reasoning, which will surely not suffice. Maybe I'll forgive them immediately and just have a good evening. I guess we shall see. I will have people there that love me and will hold me up through whatever happens, but I'm fearing the addition of insult to injury was my last straw. How can my closest friends for over 20 years just stop calling completely? How is this acceptable? Well, it's not. It's not acceptable.

I hope that my holy week turns into great memories and stories to tell you all come Monday morning. Pray for me if you have a few moments. I'll do the same for you right now.

I should be working. See y'all tomorrow.

ctwilki

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Tammy's husband is Mitch.

I can imagine how bittersweet the painting was, I'm glad you didn't have to go it alone.

ctwilki,

I hope you DID ruin their fun!!! I can't believe it! They're lucky I'm not around to thrash them all!

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