Near Death Experiences And Grief

[kayc]

Mom's angel,

You're not bothering us, we're all here sharing, trying to figure our way through it all...

[Margm]

You are certainly no bother.  Now grief is a bother.  But, we all need to love and be loved, even when it hurts. And if you ever find answers, please let us in on them.  I have lots of questions, still searching for my mojo.  

[Mom's angel]

[annew]

I believe, really know there is life after life and can really hear him speak to me in my heart......and still the pain is so strong it makes me angry to keep hurting like this over something that does not really exist.  I don't understand why I keep hurting so much and just don't want to feel it anymore.

[MartyT]

This talk featuring Dr. Eben Alexander comes to us from Susan Whitmore. Dr. Alexander is the author of Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into The Afterlife. 

 

By Susan Whitmore griefHaven Founder and CEO        Dr. Eben Alexander gave us a gift when he spoke to a room of 200 people in Santa Monica on February 23. It was a special evening, and we all walked away knowing we had just experienced a once-in-a-lifetime event. As I said on stage that evening, my goal, and the overall goal of griefHaven, is to find and bring to everyone various approaches to living life that educate and provide unique possibilities of support as we continue our journeys of life.        The work I do with those who are grieving often includes deep anguish and a sense of hopelessness, and that was also true for me for quite some time. When people see me now, they often ask what I've done over the years since Erika died that has helped me embrace life again. I always tell them that one of the keys for me was trying everything that came my way at least once. That was the only way I was able to find out what did and did not work. There were things I thought would be a waste of time, and some of those turned out to be the best. That helped me realize I wanted the same for you, and that is when I made a vow that I would search the world to find those things that might give people greater Peace of Heart. Bringing Dr. Alexander to you was in line with that vision and goal, and we will continue to do events through the years.        As I drove Dr. Alexander and Karen Newell, his life partner, to the airport, Dr. Alexander said that his experience that evening was deeply loving and meaningful. In fact, so much so that he and Karen gave us the gift of the mp3 file of Dr. Alexander's talk. And now we bring that talk to you, hoping it will circle the globe and bring the same meaning and thought-provoking experience to others.

 

 

 

[Patty65]

On 3/9/2016 at 5:22 AM, annew said:

I believe, really know there is life after life and can really hear him speak to me in my heart......and still the pain is so strong it makes me angry to keep hurting like this over something that does not really exist.  I don't understand why I keep hurting so much and just don't want to feel it anymore.

I don't know what I believe anymore, but I think the hurting for me (words like "hurting" and "missing" him are so insufficient) is how important it is for us human beings to experience touch.  How important that physical form is.  Maybe it is "just" a biological body housing who we truly are, but if there is anything that drives me to tears the quickest, it is remembering his touch, or mine to him.  I spent the last hours doing that, knowing I didn't have it much longer, and knowing/feeling it getting close to being over, that physical presence, it is what broke down my efforts to let him go with only love and peace (my passionate "mission" as I called it at the time).  And probably why hugs are so important.  I open up photos on my phone, and touch his arms, his face, in the photo, remembering and missing when it was real touch. Gut wrenching to be without. How insanely desperate I was that first couple weeks to find something with his voice on it.  His voice, his lungs blowing air across his vocal cords physically, but every tone and lilt was his essence. His choice of words.  Don't get me started on aromas!  I still cannot sniff his cologne without bursting into tears.

There are plenty -- so so many -- reasons why it keeps hurting so much -- essence and physical form are as one, like a marriage -- in each of us. It makes me think of how physically sick I've been because of this emotional pain.

Just some rambling thoughts.

[KATPILOT]

Patty the tactile touch is one of the most important things to us as humans. We can see them with our eyes but the touch brings them to us most directly. Of all the senses, that would be the most powerful. I believe that if you are deeply in love with someone, the embrace alone is making love. I had been told and have read that women have a harder time separating physical from emotional love than men do.  Many men including myself feel the same as women do and if you think about it, love becomes so much deeper when the emotional and physical are combined. Having said that, I believe that is why many of us feel such a loss of the tactile and of course the smell and sight too. The touch however I believe is the strongest. Some call it skin hunger. Whatever the label, we just miss it and it doesn't work with any other body. Just "their" body. I get these wonderful hugs and cuddles from my grandchildren but it's not the same. It's absolutely wonderful but it's just not the same. When I kissed her goodbye each day or kissed her hello, it was magic all over again. Perhaps I was just such a touchy feely person, but I felt every embrace was like making love. I never felt that way before I met her.  I told her early on that when we were touching deep in embrace, I would lose track of where my body ended and hers began. I always felt like that and when she left, well you know what I'm talking about.

I would have been vulnerable to enter into another relationship if only for the physical need and companionship early on. In fact I had someone attempt to start a relationship with me. That physical touch felt so absolutely wrong to me. Do you remember when  Lorain kissed Marty in "Back To The Future" ?  I lived that moment.  Fortunately I got past that year and allowed myself time to find out who I was and going to be, just a single man always in love yet living on. Do I miss that touch? You bet I do but it is what it is.

I want to ad a disclaimer to what I just wrote.        Some people find another relationship and that's great too. For some of us, we can love again and still love the person we have lost. When we are younger, this is a little more common and well it should be yet everyone is different. The most important part is to take the time to find your path and watch out for the band aid. It's very easy to run from the pain and lose yourself to a defense mechanism.

Stephen

 

[Margm]

Stephen, my Billy was very jealous.  His mom ran around on his dad famously, even had a date with the undertaker after his dad's funeral.  He loved his mother dearly, but this flaw made him distrust women.  I would like to say I was a paragon of virtue, and I was, for ten years.  The leash was pulled so tight that when I got a chance to break it, I did.  It reminded me of a terrier we had.  I could not let that pup go outside without a leash.  One time she broke the leash, looked around at me, and the look in her eyes said "I'm gone and you cannot catch me."  My shrink told me that if I had not been hooked on amphetamines (legal at the time, prescription), I would not have gone against my Biblical teachings and for years I felt God had given me female cancer in payment.  Christianity is wonderful if you are taught right.  But if you, like even in marriage, are put on a leash you will most times break it.  I felt I had done myself wrong.  Billy could not understand why I could talk to a shrink and not him.  (He was no Angel either, he had some of his mother's genes.)  When I was finally able to tell him, (and even after a five year affair, the man meant absolutely nothing to me, only payment for mental abuse).  It was wrong of me.  I hope I can accept the speed addiction made me more friendly than I should have been.  We separated for six weeks.  Then a friend told him he was only angry with me because I had beat him at his own game. We came back together and the marriage was finally a strong marriage.  Infidelity was something I am not proud of.  The only commandment I have not broke is killing someone.  We married while we were still 18 and 20.  We had a lot of growing up to do.  Fortunately, we loved each other enough to make it work.

I have to forgive myself.  He forgave me a long time ago.  Forgiveness of him was never a question.  My neighbor was married for as long as I was and she and her husband never ran around on each other.  There are marriages that are broken up by this, but ours only got stronger.  Neither of us would have hurt the other and we were both so ashamed we had hurt the other one.  

In the hospital an old classmate came in to see us.  I had never been more than a classmate to him and Billy knew he was terminal.  The old insecurities came out.  The guy was a lawyer for the VA system and this was merely a visit to an old classmate.  I felt Billy stiffen up, there was the old insecurity at a time when he sure did not need it and Billy was going AWOL from this hospital because the guy was in the room.  I ushered him out.  He had meant no harm.  

I am a Christian.  I believe in Heaven.  I don't know where it is located, but I believe Billy can still see me.  I have not got my faith, my supernatural, magical, mystical feelings I used to have.  And, I could not stand to have even comforting contact physically with another male.  I saw how bad I hurt him.  I did sneak a look at an old friend from high school days.  My Gosh, he is an old man.  How could that all have happened in the 54 years I was married?  I am still 17.  

[KATPILOT]

We do indeed need to forgive ourselves for it serves little purpose to carry that one.  

[Margm]

Oh, I will carry it, but it does not weigh much now.  I will carry it because I am a Baptist.  My "friend" was a Catholic and I asked him how he could do this and live with himself.  He said he went to the priest and admitted his sins.  I can see where religion can confuse people.  But, I have felt guilt because of religion, not religion itself, but my construed view of it, I will get better at this guilt thing.  Billy forgave me.  I am told Christ forgives if we ask, and I did, but forgiving yourself sometimes is hard.  And, I am not sure that has anything to do with religion, just own self doubts.  

[kayc]

I could answer that theologically but it wouldn't help you because it still takes your finding your own way through it, but I do believe forgiveness is possible even from ourselves, sometimes that's the most necessary one.  And your marriage was stronger because you must have addressed what was wrong in it...cheating is a symptom of issues and sometimes gets the catchall label of the problem, but the truth is, there's a whole host of things in play before it happens, and not something singular either.

Boy can we get off subject!  What happened to near death experiences?

[Margm]

Subject????  When have these "run on" fingers ever followed subject?  Now, sometimes when I am being thoughtful, I will put something on my own thread.   I am so far behind in my reading, I saw being vulnerable in relationships and let it fly.  My bad.

[kayc]

Nope, not bad at all, Margaret!  I was just laughing at us, that's all.

[Margm]

I feel better today Kay, I can laugh.  Now I have to go tear up Billy's hobby closet.  Might not write anything else.  

I wonder, are you all having snow and bad weather?  I think today is the first day I have seen the sun in awhile.  And, I know this stuff won't be on subject, but I think having a little sun helps our feelings, just a tiny, tiny bit.

[kayc]

The last two days we've had storms, thunder, lightening, hail, pouring rain.  Today the sun is peeking out inbetween rain bursts.  They're predicting snow Monday so I may do some office work at the church Sunday after our business meeting so I won't have to venture out Monday...I prefer not to drive in the snow but enjoy it while sitting by a nice fire.   And I chopped enough kindling the last two days to last me through the next year so I'm all set!

Good luck with Billy's closet...

[Margm]

Nearly three months later, I now see why I do not go back and read my notes.  Some things need left unsaid.  I do not know why I do that.  Maybe I am more Catholic than Baptist and "confession is good for the soul."  Not really.  I have had the book that is the subject Marty was talking about.  One day I hope to have time to read it.  I have tried, but concentration is not something I have right now.  I do see why it is best for me not to read things I wrote last week, last month, nine months ago. In fact, it might be a good thing if I broke my run-on fingers.

[Widowedbysuicide]

Please don't be so hard on yourself Marg.

If it is true that there are no judgements here then you need to be nonjudgmental of yourself too.

What was written in minutes past is history now.  It was what was true then and since everything is constantly moving and changing you wouldn't expect it to be the same now.

I've learned so much from you, please don't stop being yourself.

Marita

[Margm]

I cannot believe myself sometimes.  We spent the night in a motel last night, beds in the U-Haul.  I spent much time outside yesterday and found myself really down because I was leaving.  If I was much younger, maybe I would have stayed.  Even my neighbor is wishing for a smaller place, but she and her husband (in construction) built the two houses their family grew in.  Now, we are of the age when we have one thing left to do.  We (our families) are all around the same age.  She would need the money from the sale of her home, but she wishes for a smaller place.  And, that is what I am doing.  But, with both of us, this size of a move, the stress alone could kill us.  All of us are left alone when our mate leaves.  For whatever reason, we must continue.  Where I am moving my sister need relief from my dying mother.  And me, I relive Billy's dying when I am around her.  My sister has painted herself into a corner.  She has taken care of my mom for 11 years and has gotten both in a financial bind that I cannot help.  I signed everything over to her, but not sure that will help.  I am going from one situation into another that I cannot handle.  And, my sister is the one with the massive education.  There is nothing I want at my mom's.  I left as a child to get away.  I still want to stay away.  At 95, she might be stronger than I am right now. 

I don't know why the forum put me back in April yesterday.  I don't like to read my old notes.  I have "run-on" fingers and sometimes my mind must be Catholic and think confession is good for the soul.  Not good for the psyche when you go back and read it. 

Thanks Marita.  On my laptop.  Got to go vacuum and do some cleaning.  We live more like destructive country rednecks rather than refined southerners.  Not pretty..

[kayc]

Marg,

It's normal to feel conflicting emotions when leaving a place or making changes.  You are doing what is best for you and I think that takes a lot of courage.  I wish you well as you work on it today, I hope you will have your bed set up in your new place so you can sleep there!

[JJ660]

This has been a very interesting thread.

Before D's passing, he had been researching NDEs. This is one of the reasons why I've been thinking it could have been him experimenting, but it went too far.

I'm going to go back through this thread and read some of the links. Thanks everyone for sharing.

[Marie Lee]

Just watched the video Marty posted on NDE, etc. It was great, thank you.

Marie