Family And Red Tape - Ugh!

[Maylissa]

I'm SO furious...AGAIN!!! I just received my first bill from the lawyer I hired to look into my evil bro's theft of our parents' money, and I could SHRIEK!! Not only is it already $1800 Cdn. ( about 1 million U.S. ), for almost nothing, but there's the rest of the story....

There's also the whole matter of the Province's Office of the Public Trustee, the arm of the govt. designed to look after, provide for and track down missing monies for clients who aren't represented by a family member when they're in dire need of care. Such is the case with my father, who was under the 'care' of my evil bro, who decided to abrogate his legal responsibilities ( through a Power of Attorney ) and barely paid anything for said care and also stole the proceeds of our parents' home after our Mother died ( and not a tiny amount! ), plus more recently last year, somehow managed to illegally steal a big inheritance that was to go to our father, from our Uncle who died. How this last bit happened, no one knows, as our father should have been named as beneficiary, NOT my brother and how he intercepted those funds is anyone's guess.

HOWEVER, the Public Trustee, in all its infinite wisdom, has decided NOT to pursue any formal charges against my bro, with no reason given. No, they're leaving that up to ME, cuz of course I have oodles of money, unlike an entire Province does! The most they finally dragged their sorry butts around enough to do was revoke my bro's POA...too late to recoup any of the stolen money. They never have looked into the house sale proceeds, either, which would have been the bulk of our father's funds, and again, I have no idea why not. I'd also told them, 2 years ago now, about this Uncle's bequest to our father and suggested they look into it...which they promptly ignored, until he died, and they were told through my lawyer...so NOW, when the money's already been long disbursed, NOW they decide maybe they should look into that! I COULD SPIT!!!

So I'm sitting here with the PT's accounting of my father's account to date, with only a smallish balance to show for all those assets, and I'm SEETHING, SPITTIN' MAD!!! It's abundantly clear that the PT isn't willing to 'work with us', despite having handed them all pertinent information on a platter ( read: less work for THEM ) and meanwhile, evil bro. is laughing up his sleeve at having duped and cheated everybody, all with the help of also-evil father's lawyer, who apparently is still working on evil bro's behalf, as he appears at the bottom of the accounting, as of Apr./06, applying for the Death Benefits Application regarding my Mother. The second last entry is for the Issuance of her Certificate of Death. Methinks the Province is too busy protecting one of its lawyers, rather than seeing to it that justice, fairness and accountability is accomplished...and to heck with the lone daughter who tried to help them out in their legislated duties to their client!

And the worst thing about all of this? Had my Mother not been both so ill, of brain and body, plus a practising alcoholic, she might have seen to taking care of her only daughter's interests, long ago, when she wasn't so ill and brain-addled. But NO, she preferred to live in her little dreamworld of "Oh, Father and your brother wouldn't go THAT far in their greediness and spite." Well, I hope she's looking down on me NOW, and seeing what part her own neglect played in her daughter's complicated, continuing grief and rage! What kind of legacy is THIS? I put up with total BS at home, and even after moving out, and still decided to try to mend things as best I could with my Mom, through the years. It's something I'm proud of doing and feeling, but now it just seems like a ripe, good slap in the face. What was the point in doing any of that? Just so I could tell myself I was capable of it? If that's the only 'reward', only an ironic self-satisfaction, then I'd have to say it wasn't worth all that hard effort. Now I feel like the only one deserving of my grief....is ME.

[tara12]

mALYSSIa,

I just want ot tell u I am dealing with a similar thing , just started , the rage and hurt and betrayal is huge and noonbe much will want to talk with you about it ( I have found ) as they seem to tune out and feel , think your talking about something worng , and we , you , me , are the ones who have the problem and are greddy or somehting , that anyone who is sayong the will is worng , any court things with wills implies we are the bitter twisted ones..... they dont stick around to understand the story of what has happened and people also dont think that thsese things happen< they think their parents ,m loved ones , themselves do wills and then they are honoured , that their wishes will be taking care of ... we both know this is wrong and untrue and that evil people manipulate things how they wish .... and their is no such thing as justice , just people after money and things .

my ist is a bit diff , the solicitors seem to have lost th e will ( although they wont fess to this ) and this leaves the old executors and the one dad wanted fighting in court over who it is ..meanwhile a lotof money beoing lost in that fight and also unpaid bills amassing on the garaging of his car in a garage cause he died before picking it up ( my dad ) and any way if the old will stands the 2 people , executors based on the old will get it ( the care antique worth tons ) and the estate will probaly get the garaging bill ... and so after all that and court stuff , may mean we get nothing.... or maybe the executor dad wanted will win ..... then it is a bit better ? but still all those expenses and if the old will is found vaild ? cause they lost the new one.... man , SEE WHAT A MESS. and so avoidable and i tried ot avoid it . and the new guy dad asked to be executor 6 yrs ago , well he had lots time to check things and IN JANUARAY i ASKED WITH DAD THERE FOR HIM TO GO CHECK ( IT WAS AFTER MUM DIED ) CAUSE DAD REALYY DID NOTWANT THE OTHER TWO AS THE EXECUTORS why, becuse he didnt trust them and felt they were just after his car ...... so guess what.. how can they do this ,? cause they are evil and imoral , yep , people do not do what is right ...........

also I uncerstand the feelings about the generally legacy in the whole scne I was also someone who worked her butt off for years to heal the realtionships , I was the caretaker , I was the ONLY ONE WHO CARED .

and .......I get this mess ..... and all the other BASTARDS INCLUDING MY SLEFISH EVIL BRO GETS THEIR WAYS FOR NOTHING and its not even what dad wanted ..........

so what do we do ......... LET GO LET GO LET GO LET GO........ WE DO WHAT WE CAN , WE GET HELP , WE SEEK ADVICE AND IN THE END , EVEN THOUIGH TIS WORNG AND SUXS AND HURTS AND IS INJUST , WE LET IT GO BECUSE OTHERWISE IT WILL HURT US INSIDE , THE RAGE WILL KILL US......... AND SERVES NOONE ...... LET GO.

THATS WHAT i AM TRYING TO DO....... write me . cause I DO KNOW HOW HARD THIS IS , i AM FURIOUS AS WELL AND STRUGGLE WITH IT. PLEASE WRITE ... ABOUT WHAT HELPS US . to get thorugh this .. we will .. and u know what there is a thing called consquence , these people are doiong wrong and some times somewhere it will come back on them , som how , trust that .

and noone can take our love away inside . we can become stronger through this , we can . and love and connect with our loved ones in spirit ,they did not wish this for us . know that.

be well and hope u feel better a bit....... try breathe , walk n take a bath and cry and let it go if you can a bit cause we have no power in this situation and it probabaly aint going toget any better

[Maylissa]

Hi Tara,

I'm so very sorry you, too, are going through this kind of mess after your own loss of your dad. You're right....it sucks, royally. I know one thing it's helped a bit with, is that my H's parents have, I hope, learned from this and will direct their wishes in better ways..but no guarantees, as they'll likely just think that my family was/is nuts, but it won't happen to theirs...but if lawyers were to tell tales, it could happen to anybody, from any family.

My main issue, though, still belongs with my Mom, as I TOLD her I wouldn't get a thing if she left it up to my dad, and she chose to ignore that. At the time, I accepted it, as I knew she could no longer think straight, but afterwards....with the communication I did with her, she just wanted me to do MORE, about an issue that's hers, and always was. And she was feeling SORRY for this evil brother of mine, and NOT for me! That's what really bites, stings and keeps biting, like a wasp. She talked repeatedly about there needing to be "healing" between her and I, yet there was nothing about the wrongs commited against me after her bodily death. Nope. Just that this brother has a real "attitude", but she still felt sorry for him. Well, I'M sorry, too - sorry that I don't have an ounce of sympathy left for him! Sorry that, even after physical death, I had to find out she still doesn't wish to help me or understand what I've been put through, sorry that it isn't important to her that I get a fair share for being born to this crummy family. And if there's any truth to the idea that it is WE who pre-choose our own families before we incarnate, well, then, I should be in a mental institution for thinking I could possibly handle the one I ended up with!

Second to this is my fury at the Provincial govt. office in question, who has gone directly opposite their mandated reason for existence! It is their STATED JOB to hunt for missing money that belongs to their clients, recommend legal action against perpetrators of fraud, theft and the like, and make sure there is no hanky-panky going on with their clients' funds. This dept has been under fire just this year for doing things wrong, yet remain stubbornly crooked and lax.....just like my family! My brother's doings were already reported, by the home our father's in, to the elder abuse unit of this same govt....yet no one connected the dots nor did anything about his illegal actions. What hope is there in this world, when wherever we turn, the good guys get stomped on and the bad guys get more powerful and do whatever the heck they want to w/o getting punished? I don't HAVE any more hope that their karma will catch up with them, at least not in this lifetime, and if it isn't now, what good does that do any of us? And yet, I seem to be the one getting punished, as if I'd been the one to do so much harm. I will never understand this world, nor feel like I belong here, I'm afraid. No matter how much good I might do myself, it never seems to be enough to put a check on the bad that seeps into my life regardless. If this is a test from the Universe, then I'd like to become a drop-out of this school cuz the curriculum needs a serious overhaul.

As for consequence, I can't believe in that anymore, either. The only consequences my dad reaped was to end up with dementia, but HE'S not the one really suffering, as his mind's GONE, so he's never really even realized that all his precious money isn't his anymore.He only had to fend for himself for 6 months out of 60 years and was getting along just fine, materially. And in fact, he DID get something that he wanted -- for his only daughter to suffer and then get NOTHING. He always hated me because I didn't want to be a drone in his little kingdom and I always fought for my rights. His one son turned out to be the same as him, so HE'S also getting what HE wanted -- EVERYTHING...everything me, our Mom and our dead brother helped build, not that WE ever got any credit for any of that, but it's the reality. If not for us, evil bro wouldn't have been able to live at home until his 40's, for absolutely free, as there would have been less money overall, since my parents' business relied upon cheap wages to make more profit. I only got more wages when my dad wanted to use it as leverage to control my personal life. I ended up leaving and had to fight to leave w/o financial retribution to myself as well! They've ALWAYS cost me money, just to be a part of this horrid little clan.

If I could simply wake up one fine day and not remember ANY of them, I'd finally be happier. I'd even wish for dementia for myself, if it didn't involve other people or being strapped in a chair for the rest of my days.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Maylissa

[shell]

Maylissa and Tara,

While I haven't had the same problems you're having at the moment, I have experienced other problems similar to yours. The courts not doing their job, crummy lawyers, incompetant judges....the court system stinks. And it does seem the bad guys win and win big. I don't have any advice, but just want you two to know I understand the frustration and anger you are feeling.

Shell

[Maylissa]

Shell,

Okay...this doesn't sound good. Maybe a sign that I should just walk away, cut my losses, faGETaboutit? What I need is a good fortune-teller!! Any takers???

[shell]

Maylissa,

I'm afraid that if there is nothing you can do legally, you may have to just cut your losses and walk away. It's going to make you furious for the rest of your life, but hopefully, like grief, it will get easier to handle as the years go by. I've had to just "swallow" some legal injustices and it isn't easy, but I try not to think about them. Or, maybe someone will get off their butt and do their job and it will turn out ok someday for you. Hope so.

Hugs,

Shell

[tara12]

shell is right I agree ,

I am just letting go ......... THATS BEST . CUT THE LOSSES AND MOVE ON . CAUSE U KNOW WHAT , there never was justice and never will be and its not about justice anyway . its about the relationship and your heart and what u did and do now., you know , its us who suffers if we stay hurt and bitter , u and i did our best , YOU know u tried , u know you did your best , trust your own integrity and know this and knopw whatever anyone else does , doesnt matter in the end . even if they did , do wrong , they have to live with their consquences sometime somewhere , and uu and me have to live with our consciences and heart ... so for me , I choose to try do right thing and be true..... thats all.. i love my mum and dad and nothing nothing can change this.

[Maylissa]

AAeeeeegghhhh!!! Stupid computer! It just lost my whole post! Okay, back to the beginning....

Thanks, you two, for your support, understanding and letting me talk about this mess, unlike others who don't consider it a 'fun' enough subject to allow me that.

So far, I'm still pursuing a few small matters that may lead to seeing at least some kind of justice. I don't think I can give up just yet, as the future Will itself likely won't be worth fighting about anyway, if the bulk of the estate has already been stolen. Some of the work I may be able to do myself, so can save funds that way.

Thinking more about it, I realized that it would feel too much like giving up on myself, and my fighting spirit, to just cave and let my brother get away with everything. I've successfully won, through a lawyer, against my own father before ( and would have suffered a lot more, had I not fought ) and it just doesn't seem right to lay down and die in this hopefully last family battle, either. Since the less expensive part of this fight would involve PRE-will matters, it's probably worth pursuing at least a little farther yet. Once a Will is produced, there probably won't be anything much left to fight about anyway, as the bulk of the estate has already been stolen, so I might as well concentrate on present-day stuff. And should my brother ever get charged with anything, I can always hope that word will get out and his reputation will suffer as he, most ironically, owns and runs an alarm system business...and who would want to let a known crook install their system?

It just seems like I'm fighting not only for myself, but for lots of other women who get duped and cheated out of what's rightfully theirs. I've had to be smart and fight quite a number of men in my day ( like an ongoing curse! ), so maybe I should look at this as some kind of culmination of my history and all I've learned about NOT laying down and dying when someone's trying to bully or cheat you. It just doesn't sit right, thinking that the men in my family should ultimately WIN....not after all the battles I've already fought with them as the protagonists. I'd hate, more than anything else, to lose my own self-respect! I always said my Mom would have been a lot better off had she stood up for herself more than she did, so maybe I should listen to my own words of advice? While SHE wanted me to take on a different cause that was dear to her own heart, THIS one's dear to my OWN, and it would also be a part of living for myself now, instead of for her or anyone else. I don't even care as much about any potential monetary gain as just...not...letting...those 2 men....WIN. If I could see some retribution here, I'd feel like I wrote, or REwrote, my own legacy.

[Paul S]

If you can prove malfeasance on his part, would it be possible to place a lien on his property/business, or toss him jail? Not sure how that would work, and me being ignorant of Canadian law on these matters (or US, as well). But if you can prove theft, can't something be done? The estate may be gone/frittered away, but can you go after his other assets?

Just wondering.

[Maylissa]

I KNEW you were a thinking man! Yah, if a court-appointed accounting either shows things/funds were stolen OR he tries to simply ignore the accounting ( assuming he and the also-crooked lawyer can't fudge their way outta things ), apparently a fine is levied ( though I doubt it's very high ) and if it's not paid, then a lien can be put on his house...but that's still no biggie UNLESS he wants to sell the house and move....something he's talked about for YEARS, but we doubt he'll ever actually get around to doing. Wants to, of all things, go live in either our Mom's mom's homeland ( Sweden ) or Finland. Hope, if he does, he chokes on a pickled herring! If I can figure out a way to get things levied against his business instead, THEN he'd come around, I'm sure. The main thrust is to get him to have to pay back everything he stole TO our father's account with the Province, and that might put him in dire enough straits until our father dies. But THEN, that money would become part of our father's estate and I'd have to fight the more expensive fight against any bogus Will he had him make up. I'm kinda just hoping that if I do some of the 'preliminary' stuff, he'll know I'm not going to just go away quietly and may just want, or be advised, to come to some agreement OUTSIDE of court. Hey, if it gets really interesting, maybe I could sell the story to some TV show...cuz it feels like that's what I'm IN right now....with just as many commercials holding up the storyline.

[tara12]

Yes , WE DONT gIVE UP AND LIE DOWN , ITS NOT ABOUT THAT , its about knowing we do our best and fight for the right thing and justice , but at the same time internally let go and make sure we arent being eaten up by it , no matter the outcome , be detachted is what it means ..... so for me this means , following the process , having mysefl a lawyer , weighing up whats worth fighting and what isnt , weighing up my dad and mums wishes and whats possible , weighing up my energy levels and what else I have in my life and notletting this mess overshadow things o0r dominate my own life .... if in the end it means saying oh well and walking away , so be it . its them in the end ( even if it doesnt look like it ) that loses , cause they act immorally , I can at least know I acted with integrity ........ and dont woory , when the time comes , I will let the bastards know in calm clear language that I think what they have done is wrong and immoral and that they are kdding themselves if they think they are doing the right thing by anyone except themsleves cause they KNOW my dadsa wishes..... thats how I see it...... i work a lot inside in breathing into the constriction in my heart and breathing out the black s*** of injustice and know in my heart this is the best thing and I send love and lite to my parents to travel free in the spirit world and know I love them and they love me........

as for my brother , well , never will talk to him again if i can help it . he can rot in hell....... but I also on deeper level know he also is suffering way way more than me , cause he has to live with his actions and guilt for never helping or showing love to my parents , this is a bigger thing than money or property... rememeber , we too will die and we cant take a thing with us ....... AND U KNOW , YOU WILL BE FINE and so will i , with or without things .... thats all an illusion , sure we might be poorer , well I am poor now , but so what ..... we are capable women , i am sure and i am sure like we did without before they died , we will be fine if we dont get a thing ......

hard I know. unfair YES YES YES , wrong ,in just , yes yes yes ..... but hey , we just have to NOT BECOME LIKE THEM , THEN THEY REALLY DO win win win...nope take the moral high ground and let that be our wealth , wealth in who we are , not what we have ....

my way of dealing with it anyway ..... and its fine to feel and be however we are as well...... i uderstand the rage and anger and complex feelings , beleive u me ....... and yes , not many have time for this aspect , its tooo dirty for them, so share here ....... i care ,,,,,, and i do undersatnd... really....... just wnat us to come out on top not go down and be bitter and depressed ... cause then they win more than money , then they have damaged us and won.........

[shell]

Maylissa,

I KNOW how infuriating this whole thing is and the "I'm not giving up!" feeling. Been there,done that. And I think you should try any avenue you can (or can afford!) to set things right. It's just that there may come a time when you've exhausted all avenues and your finally worn out from the fight, and you have to say, "The h*ll with it". Actually, once you reach that point it's a relief, like a free feeling.

Like Tara said, you have to be sure the feelings of frustration, anger, fury, etc. don't harm YOU. You are more important than they are.

Good ideas Paul!

I have another thing I've been thinking about that I wanted to share with you. You have had a recent bout of anger towards your mother due to the communication you recently had with her. While I know nothing about these things, having never done one, I do think there is a possibility that some of these things aren't valid. If the person you used is not valid, just for arguments sake, then what she told you was not realistic or "true". So, maybe you can help yourself feel better by taking what she said with a grain of salt. If I were a phony psychic, say, and someone asked me about something I felt I couldn't answer effectively, that might make me look like I was a phony, the best thing I could do is say, "They don't want to talk about it". Would get me off the hook real fast! I'm not saying who you used was a phony, but maybe you should consider she might have been one, or just wrong about the message. Might take some of the anger away and let you move on somehow.

Hang in there,

Shell

[Paul S]

Maylissa:

OK, great points you are making re: sending a message about your Father's estate, etc. Sounds like a chess game from Hell, actually. Giving up (or "letting it go") may be for a future time.

Also, one thing regarding what shell had said about the validity of 'communication' with your Mom. Now you probably should have figured out by now that I don't put much stock in such things, at least in the manner that you've pursued them, but one thing that you should consider is precisely what shell suggested, that such a thing may not be valid. The early Christian Church leadership held the position (accepted by Christian leaders today, of any denomination, along with Jewish leaders) that such 'communication' is wrong because you may not be actually communicating with the dead. You may actually be communicating with a demon, and this explains how 'true' certain statements from the dead may be, down to behavior and 'knowledge' of things that you think that only you and the deceased know about. Demons will have knowledge of things, and they can mimic others. Especially consider the effects that such communication has had on you. Explains a lot, huh? Demons are masters of deception.

[Paul S]

Forgot one thing. IF you can prove malfeasance, AND your Dad is found to be mentally incompetent, couldn't you combine the 2 and show that your brother cannot be the executor of his estate later, and get then YOU can get Power of Attorney over your Dad? Then, to show the Province that you are not after your own personal interests, just divide up your Dad's estate between the two of you, after you redress the wrongs your brother did?

As in:

1) prove your bro is a louse;

2) show your Dad to be mentally incompetent

3) get POA

4) get back what your bro stole and put int Dad's estate

5) when Dad passes, take the high road and split everything, bearing in your Mom's estate distribution.

[Maylissa]

Tara,

Thanks for the rundown of the process you use. That helps put it in perspective. So I think that's what I have been doing, for the most part, and is what I've done in the past, too. So I guess I'm on the right track but just don't know for certain yet which forks in the road I should take at any one time. I keep vascillating between one decision and another....pretty exhausting, all by itself. One thing I try to keep in the forefront though is that I have to be on guard about allowing this to ruin my own, personal life, cuz, as you said, that should never be allowed to happen.

My bro, on the other hand, won't likely be 'suffering' ANY such twinges of conscience, as he's proven time and time again that he doesn't really seem to HAVE an active one. He's cheated people before and not thought any less of himself, and in fact, has both been PROUD &/or absolutely clueless of his behaviour - doesn't even SEE anything wrong with it! Sort of like a sociopath...which, for all I know, he is.

Shell,

Yup...I remember that freeing feeling, from way back when, when I decided to not have anything to do with anyone but my Mom. It IS empowering when made consciously. That's one thing I've been yearning for, in the midst of this nonsense ~ to be DONE with the whole thing and just live my own life, period. I just haven't been able to indulge in that yet, since I'm still unsure about how far I want to take this, which perhaps I won't know until more facts are in.

As for my Mom's communication, ( and Paul, you can read this as part of my reply to you, too ) sure, I thought of that and me and my H hashed it over. It's always possible, but in this communicator's case, not too likely, as she's been very accurate about other things, with other readings, before, so I trust her ability. There could be parts of it that weren't bang-on, and I looked at that, but overall, my Mom's personality and past ways of thinking sure seemed to come right through, so I dunno....

Paul,

As for demons, sorry, Paul, but I don't subscribe to most of those fearful ways of thinking, despite the # of fears I have. As far as I'm concerned, many religions are still stuck in old worldviews/paradigms that coloured what was written back then, even if the basics were true. ( I'm sure you and I could debate this stuff until the cows came home! ) I've also had some lovely and wonderful communications ( w/ everyone but my Mom, and even this one didn't sound bad on the surface ), so one could argue then that the demons were in a good mood on all those other days , cuz there have been ones that brought much peace and good stuff like that, too. What the bulk of this one seems to have shown me is that alot of what other mediums and the like have said seems to be born out - that at least some of the basic personality isn't lost ( unless one has ascended to higher levels of enlightenment ) and so any one soul may or may not be as evolved as another, even after physical death...in other words, they still have a lot to learn yet and that may take them some 'time', or another incarnation or several. So my Mom maybe hasn't progressed too much from her basic mindset ( free will, you know, should still exist, no matter the plane of existence ) and so is still operating from that level, despite all the love that might be surrounding her now. Still doesn't mean I can't be angry at her about that!

For the legal stuff, if an accounting found him guilty of fraud &/or theft, that's one issue by itself. Of course, this would certainly be considered as part of any Will contestation down the line, as he'd already have a record then. The main thing that would be contested would be the validity of any Will and I'd have to be trying to show that it was made up when he was incapable of such decisions &/or that there was duress. I CAN'T get a POA on him now that the Province has been appointed as his guardian, unless I pay some more, and go to court to apply, and not living in the same place wouldn't go over well anyway....and not that I want that job in any case.

Now, if I went the long route and contested the Will ( later on ) and WON, it would be a given that my evil bro. COULDN'T be Executioner ( I still prefer YOUR past term for the position! ) at all, since the Will was deemed invalid, in which case, my father would be deemed to have died 'intestate'( unless there was a PRIOR Will, which would then take effect ), w/o a Will, and by that Province's laws, everything would be divided up equally amongst the children & any children of theirs if they're dead ( as with my other bro ) anyway...which would suit me just fine, as that's fair, too. However, it's this contesting that could break the bank and one never knows ahead of time who will end up bearing the costs, as it's all up to the judge to decide, even should one win outright. The Court may cover some of it, or not, or the 'loser' could have to pay BOTH party's costs, or some, or none, with each one's costs paid from their own pocket. And of course, the process usually also takes YEARS, not months, and many people just give up in disgust &/or poverty! So....overall, a VERY tough call w/o knowing the future...hence, like I said...I need a fortune-teller!

So it's no WONDER those of us stuck in such positions of having to decide whether to take someone to court are a little angry!! It sounds like I'd have a pretty good chance of winning, but you can never tell for sure...maybe the judge got his toast burnt on the morning of the decision...

[Paul S]

Maylasso:

Sorry you feel that way re: demonic activity, but they are never in any 'mood', they are deceptive,and can and do mimic 'good' including, as I said, intimate knowledge that you and the deceased share, thus giving you confidence that you are talking to whomever you think you are talking to. Whatever. We'll find some cows someday and debate it further, but in my opinion, you are offbase re: religions following 'old paradign's' of old fears. The consistency by which traditional Christian teaching has been maintained by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches fails to bear that out, merely human fears shift and change over the centuries, things of divine (or the othyr syde) do not.

No matter. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

[tara12]

MAYLISSA ,

ITS NOT so much that they suffer what we see as suffering a guilty conscience , as they seem to do these things and keep doing them and it also seems they benifit from being the way they are ... but do they really , NOPE , not at all......... inside they are suffering , believe me , they may NOT EVEN THINK THEY ARE , but in the moments that truth breaks through to and they even start to feel or think differently , then they will f eel the full weight of what they have done and the regret will be huge ,,,, now this may be on their death beds ? maybe ? or if not then they will die with it on their consciousness . they will be effected by this . bel;eive me ,NO ONE GETS OUT SCOTT FREE ...... SOEMWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE THEY WILL HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THIS .... ITS HOW IT WORKS , CAUSE AND EEFECT ... JUST THE FACT that they cant have closeness and love from us is a sign of suffering ., our job i think isnot to suffer or cause suffering to others , so even though we cna never forgive the ignorance that cause them to act this way ,w e cna maybe find solace in feeling for the suffering caused by such ignorance , ours and theirs and wish someplace in the future thay realise and make ammends , if not , weare the ones who can at aleast know we tried and they are left to deal with it how they must.

dont think people get away with these things , they may in terms of the ohyscial and money , but not on any other level...

does this help , make sense .......

in other words , we can learn to forgive even the person BUT NOT THE ACTIONS NOR THE IGNORANCE , BUT WE CAN UNDERSTAND people do things from a palce of suffering and ignorance . lets not become them , lets not become people who hurt others and steal and lie and take revenge , this repeats the pattern and then like i said they win and feel they were right , nope , better to refelct back to them in calm ways , that they have done wrong and they will suffer for it , but to tell them this from a place of compassion is much more powerful thean form one of anger and revenge , trust me ... eventually some day they will , realise , and as I said some people it takes till their last breath to make such amends and some never ever do ., not this life ....... but thats their problem\ NOT YOURS , NOT MINE. THATS THEIR LIFE .......... i CHOOSE TO LIVE A DIFFERENT WAY AND i WOULD RATHER LOSE IT ALL , REALLY . and I AM .......... THAN SUFFER BEING SO ROTTEN i WOULD STEAL FROM DEAD PEOPLE.OR MY OWN FAMILY ....noway ever .

this is not said lightly believ me , i am standing to lose hundreds of thousands and will never see anything