How Do You Deal With Your Mom Being Murdered?

[Penny1]

Hi everyone, my Mom was murdered on Dec 3/05. She was poisoned by my father....so not only did I lose my Mom, I lost my father as well... As one could imagine, I am not dealing with reality very well. I have and still am going through counselling on a weekly basis but the pain, rage, and guilt is still very much a part of my daily life.... there have been no arrests by the police... they tell me it is one thing to know he killed her but another thing to prove it..... he fed her fatal doses of anti-freeze... she died a very painful death....

I have been a huge part of the police investigation, yet they are still won't give me much information on where they are with it....I just get told to remain patient....

They have brought in the major crime investigators from two near by cities but I have this huge fear that it will become a cold case file...

My one and only sister, who has been my fathers pet won't believe that he murdered her. She thinks my mom drank it herself.... it is so crazy and needless to say... I havent seen my sister since mom's burial....

She went through all of my moms belongings and took what she wanted and gave the rest away. The only possesion of my moms that I have is a teddy bear of hers.... Mr Bear (I call him that) has been my savior... I talk to him all the time.... Am I going crazy talking to a stuffed bear??

Hopefully by joining this forum, someone can give me some words of wisdom to help me through this crazy messed up world I call life.....

[Guest SteveG]

Penny1,

First of all, you're not going crazy. Wait until you see the responses you get from your post. Your fellow members who have gone through what you are going through will attest to that.

I have a basic guideline for the question, "Am I going crazy?"

The guideline: If you can ask that question you are not.

Maybe it's time again to post a piece that may help.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But You're Absolutely Normal

Grief is a normal reaction to loss, and it shows up in many ways you might not expect.

If you've...

• been angry with doctors or nurses for not doing enough…

• been angry with yourself for not taking more heroic steps…

• been sleeping too much or not enough…

• noticed a change in appetite…

• felt that no one understands what you're going through…

• felt that friends should call more or call less or leave you alone or invite you along more often…

• bought things you didn't need…

• considered selling everything and moving…

• had headaches, upset stomachs, weakness, lethargy, more aches and pains…

• been unbearably lonely and depressed…

• been crabby…

• cried for no apparent reason…

• found yourself obsessed with thoughts of the deceased…

• been forgetful, confused, uncharacteristically absent-minded…

• panicked over little things…

• felt guilty about things you have or haven't done…

• gone to the store every day…

• forgotten why you went somewhere…

• called friends and talked for a long time…

• called friends and wanted to hang up after only a brief conversation…

• not wanted to attend social functions you usually enjoyed…

• been angry for being left alone…

• found yourself unable to concentrate on written material…

• been unable to remember what you just read…

...you're absolutely normal. These are all common reactions to grief, and they may take up to two years to pass completely, but they will pass. You'll never forget the person who has died, but your life will again become normal, even if it is never exactly the same. Take care of yourself. You will heal in time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Welcome to our group. It is my sincerest hope that you will find solace and comfort from the people who interact with you.

SteveG

[Penny1]

Thanks Steve for your advice

I have gone through so much counselling and I do know that things should get better as time passes. I just can't imagine what normal is anymore. All of the things you listed I have experienced over and over again. I finally took some time off work as I was losing days and conversations, I found I couldn't remember what I did the previous day or who I talked to. It was bad.... and I was told I needed to take some time or have a nervouse breakdown. Of course the choice was easy and I took some time. I spent many hours talking to my mom and really looking deep within myself only to come to the realization that some of it I have to let go of. #1 is the guilt....easier said than done.

I guess the hardest thing that I am experiencing is will justice prevail? Will my father be held accountable for what he has done? I can deal with being alone and not having family to lean on.... I can deal with the guilt...

I am not so sure I can deal with the fact that he may never be charged. That is the biggest obstacle I am finding extremely hard to accept. Her life has to have meant more... and I will never understand why? Why her? Why not divorce? Was her life really so worthless to him???

I have read many posts here and I am very thankful to find a place to talk...

Thanks for your support Steve

[Maylissa]

Penny1,

I'm so truly sorry, shocked and horrified, about how your mom passed and the agony you must be going through. Your story has left me almost speechless, it's such a terrible nightmare....and yet one that I can relate to somewhat, as this is the kind of thing I'd always feared my own father might do to my Mother someday. There will always be a question in my mind as to why my Mum had her final stroke, since my father claimed she'd been hit on the head, twice, while she was in the rehab centre, and I will always wonder if this was just a figment of his dementia or if he actually hit her one final time, causing her last stroke....partly because he'd already done that, with his big diamond ring once, when I was a little girl. So your nightmare is one that I'd always feared I'd have to live through as well, and now I don't even know the truth of my Mum's death. No autopsy was done, and no family member saw her body again after she died.

I can also relate, again somewhat, to your frustration with wondering if justice will ever be done. My eldest brother also died 2 months after our Mum, and the remaining brother has ended up stealing the bulk of our parents' money ( father's in a home, with his advanced dementia ) and I'm currently in the process of trying to see that he's found guilty of theft and fraud, not only for that but for having our father make up an invalid Will before he was carted off to the home. It's already been 2 years of waiting, trying to decide what steps to take, hiring a lawyer who's wasted even more time and just hoping my father won't die before something is accomplished which would make any contesting of a Will more of a sure thing. I'm now just about to take the Provincial body who has guardianship of our father to court, for not doing their job in investigating this misappropriation of funds.

I've been told that justice often doesn't even exist anymore in this world and while I, too, see that everyday, one still has to cling to a bit of hope to avoid going right over the edge with fury and well....hopelessness! So I truly, truly feel for you. What you're going through, and what your father did, is almost incomprehensible...and yet not, if you've also got a history of 'bad' family relations. But it's still horrifying, regardless. No one could prepare for such a tragedy. I think if it were me, and I KNEW that that's what had happened, I'd be in jail myself, for another murder!

How could life possibly be 'normal' after something like this?!?! I couldn't imagine what that would look or feel like, either. I think you were very wise in taking time off, as no one could hope to function properly after such an affront to life and family. I know pretty closely what you mean about a mother's life supposed to have had more meaning, and VALUE, than that. I felt the same way about my own Mother's death, with no one really caring, no memorial, no interment of her ashes, barely any cards from relatives....nothing....and then my father and brother selling off almost all of her worldly goods to strangers, and not telling me a thing, as if I wasn't even a daughter or sister. To take someone's life......even worse, even worse. It's like your story is one large and more heinous step above mine on the scale of Horrible Things That Happen In Families. You've also lost your sister, as well as your parents, rather like I lost both parents and 2 brothers, one to death, the other to greed and evil. You will also find a few others here who've also had siblings take everything and ignore the needs and wants of their other family members, so you're not alone in that.

As for words of wisdom, Steve's list is a good starting point, as intense feelings can easily make us feel 'crazy' ourselves, out of control, hopeless, helpless, powerless, you name it! I had most of these symptoms myself, too, for pretty much 2 years, and only this year has some of that abated...but only because I've had to regroup and refocus, because our 19 year old furbaby is nearing the end of her time with us....so it's a new road of grief for me up ahead, so soon after the last ones. Read as much about grief as you can, in conjunction with your counseling, and most especially....keep coming back here, where you'll be surrounded by others who truly care, truly understand, and even if we can't entirely, we try very hard to empathize wherever and whenever we can. It can be so safe, good, and healing, here, that some of us have even made good friends online...which is a true blessing, after the shock of death and all it drags along with it. I hope you'll keep coming back and posting - you have no idea how many others you might inadvertantly help by telling your story/ies, nor how many can help you, one way or another, until you try this site on for size.

[shell]

Penny1,

I, too, like Maylissa, am speechless and horrified at your story. It is hard enough to lose someone to illness, but murder, especially by your own father, is just so, so much more to bear. I also understand your frustration regarding the legal system and if he will have to pay for what he has done. The only thing I try to convince myself of at times like these is that people pay eventually, one way or another, for their evilness. And I'm not particularly talking about this in a religious sense, just that sometimes people pay in ways that are actually worse than what we would want for them. but, hopefully, the police will be able to prove he did it.

As Maylissa told you, read all you can on grief and keep posting here. This site has helped me more than I can say.

Again, I'm so, so sorry for your circumstances. Just hang in there and believe that justice will be done. And no, you're not crazy talking to a stuffed bear. I talk to a stuffed gorilla named Valentine.

Huge hugs to you,

Shell

Steve, thanks for the list. I'm going to print it out and show it to my mom. I think it would help her.

Shell

[amanda]

hi penny1,

I am so sorry for the loss of your mum and the way she passed,i can only second what everyone has said so far.

My best friends mum was murdered in july 04 by her stepfather,I have seen my friend suffer more than him,It isnt fair.

It seems the usa justice system is no better than the english my friend ended up hiring an investigator to prove that he was not insane as he was caught red handed.

She was totally consumed with proving his sane guilt,only then did she start to grieve,I was here for her night and day until i lost my mum on 16 may 05.

Do you have a friend who could be there for you?

Dont ever feel that people have heard about it enough,talk as much as you want to about it.

No loss can be as brutal as losing a loved one at the hands of another.

my heart goes out to you,

keep posting

from amanda

[Penny1]

Thank you all for your words of encouragement,

Life will go on no matter what happens.... some days I am consumed with trying to prove his guilt. I have spent hours on the net researching anti-freeze poisoning because the police department here has never dealt with this kind of murder before. It was after I realized that the pathologist gave them a specific time frame of when they thought she ingested it that I started doing my research. A gazillion emails to reporters who have investigated this type of murder, forensic pathologists that have testified in previous court cases and still I am no further ahead.

I went through gruelling hours of interviews with the RCMP and lie detector tests as they felt she ingested it on the day I took her into emerg. She was feeling so sick and learnt from my father that she had been sick for 2 weeks prior to me taking her in.... I spent the majority of a week in interview rooms with question after question and finally realized to my horror that they considered me a suspect.....

I went to the RCMP the night she died and told them that I felt she was poisoned.... It is so insane.... They took my statement that night and yet it took them from Dec 3 to Feb 16th for them to call me and inform me that it was lethal doses of anti-freeze...why so long....

I guess one of the hardest things I am trying to deal with is how much pain she went through. I can remember her complaining of her back pain which she said was bothering her. It was from her kidneys shutting down.... just before she died, she was having seizures... I had to climb up on her bed and hold her down so that she didn't rip out all of the iv s attached to her.... the nurse told me she was dying and to just talk to her and tell her it was ok to go.....I could see how much she was in pain and it was the hardest thing I have ever done was telling her it was ok to die.... Oh my god this is so hard.....

[shell]

Oh, Penny, I feel so sorry for all that you had to go through. I can't even imagine. Keep up your research. You never know when you will stumble across something that might help. It is ridiculous that it seems the average person has to help the police solve crimes nowadays. And Amanda is right, the justice system is no better in the US than anywhere else. It seems to me that most of the people they catch are from tips they get through shows like "Americas Most Wanted" and showing it on the news. Just average citizens noticing something or someone that the trained "professionals" can't seem to do! Anyway, I hope so much for you that something will break in the case and justice will be served.

And as lame as this sounds, just remember that your wonderful mom is no longer in pain and can't be hurt anymore.

Big hugs to you,

Shell

[Penny1]

Thanks Shell

Sorry yesterday I was having a moment..... Somedays as you know it just gets too overwhelming.... yesterday was one of those days...

Thanks so much for your support.... everyone on here are so supportive and willing to give so much of themselves to help other people even when they have experienced tragedy in their own lives....

Wow is all I can say! It is amazing....

Thanks you so much....for listening.

Penny

[MartyT]

My dear Penny,

Let me add my voice to all the others in expressing our deepest sympathy to you for this unimaginable horror. I'm so very sorry -- but also very grateful that you've found your way to this warm and caring place, where you can be surrounded by others who are familiar with the agonizing grief of losing a mother to death. And it's simply unrealistic to think that you can manage this overwhelming grief all by yourself – especially when you are coping not only with the loss of your mother, but also with a death by homicide, and that at the hands of your own father! Grief doesn't get much more complicated than this.

I am relieved to know that as a survivor of homicide, you are seeing a counselor on a weekly basis. In addition to that, if you haven’t done so already, I strongly encourage you to educate yourself about the subject. Read what others have written about it (see, for example, What to Do When the Police Leave by Bill Jenkins; you can go to Amazon.com to read the description and reviews, or ask for it at your local library. See also Bill's Web site, Homicide: Resources for Death, Grief and Survivors of Homicide). Visit other Web sites devoted to this subject, such as Gateway to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Information and National Center for Victims of Crime. See also the many links I have listed on the Traumatic Loss page of my Grief Healing Web site.

Such sites will assure you that you are not alone in this tragedy, will offer you some very practical ways to manage your grief, and will help you to recognize that if others can survive this most devastating of losses, then you can do it, too. The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to acknowledge that you cannot do this alone. You've already done that by getting yourself to a counselor and by coming to this site, and I hope that you will follow through with some of these additional resources.

My prayer for you is that the day will come when the good memories you have of your beloved mother will outweigh the bad. As we so often point out to one another on this site, the way you come to peace about all of this is one day at a time, and if that's too much, you work at it one hour or even one minute at a time.

You asked whether talking to your Mr. Bear is crazy, and I loved Shell’s response to you about that -- I would only add that it is the situation you are in that is "crazy," Penny -- not you. Feeling as if you are crazy is not the same as being crazy or having a mental illness. What you are feeling and experiencing is a normal reaction to this horrible, tragic event.

I know that with support and understanding, you will make it through the difficult times of outrage, sadness and longing still ahead, and I hope and pray that one day you will discover that through this horrible tragedy, your own life can be more meaningful than ever before. For now, please know that we’re all thinking of you and holding you in our hearts.

Wishing you peace and healing,

Marty T

[shell]

Penny,

I have one other idea for you. Hope you live in the US or you won't know the shows I'm talking about. But they probably have them everywhere. Anyway, I was thinking of Fox tvs Greta Susteren (I know that last name is not exactly right, but close enough if you know who I'm talking about!) who covers murder stories and missing people and stuff like that. She mentioned one time that they have people contact them with their stories and pick ones they want to cover. Putting a case in the public eye puts a lot of pressure on the police and such, so I think it helps to "push" them into doing their jobs. Another one is Nancy Grace on CNN. You might want to check into it to see if they would cover your mothers murder. If you have any questions you can PM me.

Shell

[Penny1]

MartyT

Thank you so much for the lift.... My mom was so very wonderful and no one deserves to die the way she did.... It is so very difficult to cope... I guess the biggest for me is to understand why... I know from all of the counselling and books I have read, that the question as to "why" will never be answered.... for the simple reason being is that only a very sick person thinks of murder as being acceptable.... well I guess I shouldn't say it will never be answered... it was all about money.....that is the reason why.... the big mtg got paid off, the life insurance payout, the burden of her living was getting in the way of his relationship with his new girlfriend.... how morbid is that??? I guess it is a question of how any human could repeatedly feed his wife of 44 years an anti-freeze smoothie wondering if that was the one to do her in......

It is horrendous....what more can I say.... that is the problem that I just can't seem to get a grip on..... she worshipped the ground he walked on... always turned the other cheek when he had his affairs....

The RCMP are investigating but they won't give me any answers.... has anyone told the insurance company? has anyone notified the goverment re her pension he is now getting? has anyone informed the mtg company? The police will give me no information......

Shell

I did contact Nancy Grace about it and have had no relpy.... the RCMP want me to wait to contact the press ????? dont know why.....

I feel so helpless.... What do I do??? I can't just sit back and be patient... but what do I do????

Thank you for letting me rant..... you guys are wonderful and a godsend!!!!

[sunstreet]

Penny1,

I am so sorry for what you have had to go through and I am so sorry for your loss. I have not had a loss in this way but I have had a lot of loss. I do believe that you are very normal for how grief is moving through you. I definitely think it is just fine to talk to "Mr. Bear" In regards to your anger and rage, one thing that helps me when I get that feeling that I just want to rip my hair out is that I get a big stack of paper and I rip it up. Courage to you,

Sunstreet

[shell]

Penny,

I'm just presuming here, but I imagine the RCMP want you to wait because they don't want the exposure....might make them look like they aren't doing their job right! Then again, they might have an ace up their sleeve and are waiting to play it and having the exposure might mess it up. I do know that not giving you any info is common. It happens to most families. Don't know why. I have very little faith in any police department nowadays. Just watching the news makes you wonder if any of them know anything at all!

I, too, think you are doing incredibly well in such a horrendous situation.

Just stay strong, they may nail him yet!

Hugs,

Shell

Try Greta on Fox.

[Penny1]

Thanks Shell & Sunstreet

My mission for today, is to drive to the town where my mom lived and talk to the investigators....

Hopefully they will at least give me some comfort that her file is not just pushed aside... It is so weird that on an emotional level I can feel so strong and yet so weak...

I try to let go of the drama (as the counsellor advised) but how do you do that? Premeditated murder.... can't get much more dramatic than that....

Shell, I will look up Greta on fox see how far that may get me... as I said I have emailed a ton of people and have gotten only one reply.... but maybe my story is too wacko to seem real and that is why I haven't recieved any replies...

Don't know just guessing....

Anyways say a prayer for me.... and once again thank you for all of your support....

[Maylissa]

Penny1,

Oh my, Penny, we have more similarities, I see! With my dad, everything was always about money, too.....and control. I just found out recently that while my Mum was hospitalized for those 6 months, my dad was taking this woman he was working with on a business deal out for dinners, all the while using my Mum's CPP money for his own uses, yet refusing to pay for either a phone or TV hook-up in her room. This, despite my deceased brother having brought one of his own small TV's for her to use...and it was never recovered from the rehab place as he died himself, so soon afterwards. My father's dementia was never any excuse for this in my books, as this is what he's always been like regardless. After my Mum died, he had some stupid plan to "go back out on the road" as a sales rep, even though he was 85 years old! He still could focus on nothing else but trying to make his perennial million! He simply disgusts me. Claimed there was NO money to get her personal care at home, so she could have died there, yet there was money enough in both of their accounts to more than cover that expense, I found out much later. Then of course, he sold their house w/i a month of her death and got wads of dough from that.....but it never ocurred to him to do that beforehand, or in any of the years preceading her strokes.

So now he sits in his wheelchair at the home he's in, with a few thousand in his account ( managed by the Public Trustee ) but the bulk having gone into the pocket of my last living brother, stolen from the man who taught his son to steal.....some justice, you might say, but not for me, or my Mum, as it's been stolen from us, too. And my Mother's ashes still sit, dishonourably, in this brother's closet, along with our Aunt's and Uncle's. As someone said ( it might have been Shell, I think ), a very strange 'collection'!

As for the RCMP ( and I didn't realize you were in Canada, too! ), I'm not surprised, especially if your mom lived in a smaller town. From what I've seen in my own ( in AB ), they're as crooked and stupid as the day is long.....worse than city police and they sure protect their own, but nobody else unless you happen to be personal friends with one of them. Heck, even our local paper always tows their line and censors the public if it goes against what the RCMP &/or local by-law officers say. ( BTW, I have a cousin living somewhere on the Island, and another cousin by the name of Penny on the mainland! )

I'll likely be facing the same kind of thing as you, as now I've been advised to call the city police in their Province, tell them my story and ask them if they would investigate such a thing, on the grounds that it's elder abuse ( the theft and fraud committed by my bro. )....but I hesitate, knowing full well how so many cases are just carelessly tossed into a file, never to be looked at again. This would be much easier for me if I DID live in the same Province still. Had that been the case, I think I would have physically gone and done more about things right away, but I learned the hard way that if you're not there, you're not taken very seriously in the first place.

I haven't much of a clue as to how, exactly, to let go of the drama, either, except to play that 'detachment' game whenever you can....ie., trying to 'reason' with yourself about things that happen and things you feel you must do for yourself, then processing the emotions when it's more convenient to do so. But I know how hard it is to try and maintain distance from emotion and summon logic when you need it, when all it takes to get you going is one, little minute of just thinking about what's really happened...and how CRAZY the events and other players are/were! It boggles the mind, most often.

As for why....I know, I ask myself that same question thousands of times, for most of what my dad ever did/didn't do, and the same now for my brother. I've asked relatives about possible causes for his craziness, but no one's had any real answers. Who knows? Not enough oxygen at birth? Simply undiagnosed mental illness all his life? All I know for sure is that I'm the one having to deal with the fall-out from his mentalness, it's certainly not MY fault, but I can't change a thing about it or about what I never got from him as a father. All I can do is what I've always done....be as opposite from him as I possibly can! ( except I still have a great desire to punch him in the face and thus be violent like he was , but only with him )

I hope you have some success with the cops, though, despite my own assessment of them. Maybe that will be just what I need, too, to spur myself on as well! Best of luck, I'll be rootin' for you, and keep us in your loop!

[Penny1]

Hi Maylissa

Do you ever just ask yourself if there is such thing as karma....what the heck did I do for this messed up life we have??

I keep telling myself "whatever doesn't kill ya can only make you stronger"

My brothers wife tells me that god will only put in our lives what we can deal with.... I'm not dealing very well.... but my brother is so very lucky to have her support.....

I am so sorry to hear about what you are having to deal with.... I have read your other posts and feel for ya...

I know that no matter what happens, my father will die being a very lonely old man... I guess I should believe that his is coming to him... and ya I wish I could punch him in the face too....

He couldn't even bother to attend Mom's burial that I had to arrange....

Life just went on for him and his little girlfriend that lives in his neighborhood....

I feel so enraged that all of my mother's neighbors and friends think she died of natural causes... I would like to go and spray graffiti all over the house and his pick up truck with the words murderer on them.....

But the reality is that I will not stoop to his level...

The police tell me to take comfort that it is not sitting well with him that they think he did it...What is he scared of going to jail??

No kidding he knows they know that he is guilty,that is why he refuses a lie detector test.. the same for my sister she won't take it either... and they both hired lawyers right away.....

Hired lawyers with blood money! So I will not stop persuing them on this one....

They can spend their entire life savings on lawyers and hopefully more before I will give up....

I lost my mother, my friend, and part of me and I will go to my grave trying to prove that justice will prevail...

I hear ya when you say it is difficult for you as you live elsewhere...

It must be hard on you for I know what it feels like when you have to sit back and do nothing.... it makes me crazy...

Thanks for your support, I will be thinking of you and wish you luck with whatever you decide to do with your situation...

[Pandorasbox]

Penny,

I am so, so, very sorry to hear of your loss, and the circumstances surrounding it.

While it was my father's death(sudden heart attack), in February, that brought me here (and I have been absent, or on lurk mode, for quite some time now), I can completely empathize with you, over what you're going through, as far as the criminal side of this, and the pain that you are suffering over the pain that your mother suffered, as well as the grief of the loss.

In the few posts I posted earlier in the year, I made mention of the fact that we were already dealing with a horrendous crime having occurred to my family, before my dad's death, and we're still in the thick of the whole thing now. In fact, the process is worse now, without my dad, as he was my rock through the whole mess, and he was pretty much the sole caretaker for my youngest son(other than his preschool teachers, and me and my fiance), throughout all of the interviews, and such. My youngest is 4, and mentally retarded, and Grandpa wasn't just his caretaker, he was also his best friend, and I honestly believe that he was my dad's best friend, too, at least for the last year of my dad's life.

So now here we are, a bit further along in the justice process, but in even more pain. I'm not going to share the details of the crime, but it was horrific, and the guilty party is also a family member. It's been almost a year since the crime was discovered, and we're still waiting for either a satisfactory plea bargain, or a trial. We went through months of investigations, where the person was living free, and not even aware that he was being investigated. It felt like he would never be arrested. We are still angry at how long it took for that to happen. We've been through the preliminary hearing, and that was such an excruciating experience, and now, most likely, we'll be heading to a trial. It could start as soon as next month.

It's just awful, and the pain I feel, for the pain that he inflicted on the victims is heart-wrenching. Add my dad's death to that, and it's just insane. I've had to have major dental work done, both before, and after my dad's death, not for decay, but for damage to my teeth, due to stress related clenching, and grinding. I have lost so much weight, and go through on and off again periods of time where I have an appetite (right now I have one - one small blessing ), and my entire life is just a swirling mess in my head.

Keep on doing what you can, in order to have justice served. I know how hard it is. I know how painful it is, but I also know how incredibly important it is, too. It is my hope that something happens soon to lead the investigation towards an arrest. The waiting, and not knowing is so hard, and frustrating, and I feel so bad for what you're going through, as I know it, all too well.

I miss my dad, so much, and am in so much pain over all of this stuff, so please know that you're not alone. I'm sorry that we both have to go through this, but it is at least comforting to know that there are others who understand. I hope you feel that way, too. Also, feel free to PM me any time, if you'd like to talk more one on one.

I don't believe in the phrase, "God won't give you more than you can handle", anymore. It's a nice thought, but it's not realistic. Just keep taking one step and a time, and DO NOT forget to take care of YOURSELF!

Huge hugs to you ,

Pandora

[Penny1]

Thanks Pandora for your support....

I too am sorry to hear that you like me are having to deal with simular circumstances... Sorry to hear about the loss of your dad....

From the little detail you gave regarding your circumstance, I think I know what you are dealing with....

In my life, my mom was always the glue that kept our family together... she was the the keeper of the scales...always seemed to balance everyone out when family chaos occured.....

I guess you could say about my mom, she always put everyone first, never complained or showed her pain, the silence she lived in for so many years never being able to be heard by my father.... he was the selfish one....

And of course as you know from my posts, she paid dearly for loving my father...

Like you said, the waiting is excrutiating, and once again I am losing grip on life....

Today was so bad... can't explain it, just one of those waves of grief washing over me.... missing her so much...

I can relate to your problems with your teeth, I do the same, grinding and clenching.... all of the sudden my mouth starts hurting and I realize I am clenching my teeth...

Weight loss, oh ya went through that, still have times where I can't eat... today is one of those days....stop the world I wanna get off....

Thanks for being so understanding, lets hope for both of us, that justice does prevail....

I am so very thankful that I found this site.... everyone is so very supportive....and hopefully you can find some comfort or peace in your life...

My heart goes out to you for what you have to face in the near future...

You may msg me too!! Thank you so much for your words of kindness...thanks for brightening my day....

Hugs to you

[Penny1]

Well.....

For anyone who has been listening to me babble.....

I saw the RCMP on monday. They again did not give me a lot of info but this time I was able to see the supervising investigator...

He was very compassionate and did put my mind at ease.... He promised me that they were doing everything within their power and would not give up on this case...

I was told that my father refuses to co-operate with them in any way.... guilty is all I can say...

The raw emotions that I have experienced are so much in my face every day that goes by. Yesterday I went looking for books,books,books but haven't found any so far to help ease my anger towards my father.

The counsellor I am seeing has been encouraging me to find forgiveness towards him.... can't do it.... maybe one day when he is in jail but not until then.... she tells me to try to look into his past and imagine what pain he went through to become the person he is today.... she wants me to forgive him but not to forgive what he has done.... oh my god that is one journey I am so not ready for.... just too much anger....

I wish I could just go and erase my memory it is all too much to bear...

Thanks for listening

[Maylissa]

Penny,

Well, I'm glad to hear you at least got some cooperation with the police. It's a start.

For me, I lay awake last night getting angrier and angrier at my own lawyer, who just sent another bill yet hasn't followed up on a few things she SAID she'd be doing. She also forgets half of what I've told her more than once, and despite my copious notes detailing everything that originally happened, she doesn't seem to know my story from one phone conference to another. Then I just found out that my Uncle's Will wasn't even probated ( he lived in Chilliwack ) yet my evil brother somehow supposedly collected the entire inheritance from him, bypassing our father, to whom it was originally supposed to go to. So with no Will to check, I'm left w/o any proof of theft. I'm trying to find out exactly what the probate laws are in BC. I've also got an email in to the Public Trustee of BC, just in case my Uncle was under their authority, rather than under my brother's. This would have been the largest portion of our father's estate, more than likely, so now I don't know if it's worth continuing chasing down my brother's actions, just to pay lawyers tons of dough and get almost nothing for all that time, money and effort.

So as for the anger, and forgiveness, I HEAR you! And second that! Sure, one can suppose that in order to turn out so rotten, someone may have had a bad time of life when younger.....but it's no excuse, else I, too, would be a rotten person, which I'm not. Plus, some people are just 'bad seeds', no matter what. Since I LIVED WITH my own brother as we each grew up, and I'm familiar with his challenges and our family dynamics, he's a good example. In a nutshell, one can ask.....well how come he's so rotten, and I'm not? How come he's so rotten and our eldest brother wasn't as bad? To my mind, it still comes down to this:

We each make choices every day of our lives, and therefore we each fully own and are responsible for what we ultimately turn out like. From what I personally feel as very painful inside, each and every day, I still chose, overall, a higher road, and although I'm nowhere near perfect, I still wouldn't even THINK of doing the same things my brother and father have chosen to do in their time here. I've fought back, in defense, but never started any of those battles w/o provocation first.

And even at those rare times when I'd be feeling almost pity towards either of them, giving them the benefit of the doubt as to WHY they might be so screwed up.....it still didn't take away all the anger about their actions....so I've never really understood, except on an intellectual level, how this type of 'forgiveness' works...at least not when there's THAT much to 'forgive'. So you don't have to feel like you're the only one who doesn't either 'get' this, or that you HAVE to forgive anyone. They say it's for our own good, but frankly, I often think others have more of a problem with someone thinking ill of a family member than I do. In fact, it sort of seems like an abomination to me, to forgive someone who has chosen to be evil in nature. If they truly didn't KNOW their actions were wrong, then okay, but if they DO, it's like 'condoning' who and how they chose to be....a further 'letting them off the hook', so to speak. The farthest I can go with this whole concept is to ACCEPT that that's the way they are, and not expect to change them one iota or convince them that they're wrong, and just live with that. Any thoughts?

Edited June 8, 2006 by Maylissa

[Penny1]

Thanks Maylisa for your support

I understand what you said about letting them off the hook and accepting who they are....

For me it so hard to comprehend how I was raised in my family, and yet knowing within my self I could never be like my father or my sister for that matter....

How is it that you have siblings raised together with the same set of parents and turn out so completely different?

I do have huge anger feelings towards my sister.... she doesn't believe that my father murdered mom....even when the RCMP to her that mom had lethal doses of anti-freeze in her system and that is what killed her.

They told her that that due to the time frame the pathologist gave them of when she ingested the lethal does that it was either me or my dad that were main suspects... she sat back and let me go through the hours of questioning, the hours of the polygraph, and yet still stood by his side...even after she knew I passed the test and was cleared.....

She went through all of mom's stuff and kept what she wanted and gave the rest away..... I have nothing of my mom's, not that I would have wanted alot just a few mementos would have been nice... something for my kids for them to remember their grandma.....

It is just too hard to accept... I know I have to but easier said than done...

As you put it, I can't condone what either of them did....

I wish I could understand and it would make this so much easier....

[Maylissa]

Penny,

It's so extra-hard, I think, for people like you and me, with difficult backgrounds, to deal with deaths, and especially for you, having it further complicated by murder, which adds its own special set of reactions by itself. Yes, some understanding of the other 'players' would be of use in such situations, and yet it's too often not available, adding more frustration than enough to the whole thing. A backwards crystal ball would be nice!

How siblings turn out so differently, I don't really, really comprehend, although I've tried for years. I realize age differences play a part, as do the dynamics of when each child is born and their own set of experiences as they grow up, but still, you'd think there'd be more similarities than differences, overall. It still confuses me that we all went through many specific events that we were all present for, often in the same room for, and yet our perceptions are so different. Some of it lies with gender, but not all.

For me, being the youngest and a later-life 'mistake' that my Mum insisted on keeping ( she wanted a daughter ), I know I received some special trtmnt. and feelings from her, so there must have been some sibling jealousy/rivalry, esp. from my next-youngest brother, and I guess he 'nurtured' this his entire life, rather than grow out of it. But on the other hand, there didn't seem to be any of this towards either me OR this brother, from our eldest sibling/brother ( the one who died suddenly after our Mum did ), who, although troubled in his own ways, was more like me overall. Goodness know what horrible things HE experienced when young, especially when he was the first and only child for 5 years and finances were very tight, too, by comparison to when I arrived. That's what makes it so strange for me...the really evil one is in the middle, yet we couldn't be less alike! Of course, there's some question in my mind about whether this brother even had the same father as me and our eldest brother, so maybe that would explain a lot....but it's all just supposition on my part and such secrets are now buried with my Mum's and other brother's deaths.

For your sister, it sounds like there must be at least some ambiguity there, for if she truly thinks so well of your father, why would she want your mom's personal items so badly as to steal them?.....unless it was just to deny you getting them. But it reminds me of my evil bro telling me that ALL the family problems were our Mother's fault, not our father's, yet our father was the one who clearly beat her in front of us, the one who trashed the house, the one who got brutally drunk, the one who talked about other women right in front of others ( even other adults and relatives ).....how this bro reconciled this disparity in his ( stupid! ) head, I'll never understand, and there's certainly no openness towards discussion in my relations with him, so it's a mystery I can't hope to solve. I know my Mum confided things to me that she likely never mentioned to either brother, but still.....we all suffered for our father's behaviour. Yet, clearly, the evil one decided to adopt our father's behaviour and ways of thinking and dealing with people as his own. How anyone could think this wise, useful and helpful to one's own life is beyond me. But that's the way it stands.

With your sister, it seems like she's using the 'running away from the facts' method, for whatever reason, to cope. For some reason, she needs YOU to be the perceived 'bad guy' rather than your dad. She must be either scared or in complete denial, likely both.

I know how hard even plain acceptance is with this stuff, and I'm certainly not perfect in it....I sort of accept it, but there's an overlay still of railing against it, if you know what I mean. They sit side by side in my head and heart.....hard to explain in mere words. I guess it's like intellectually accepting it and having some of that leech into my heart, but the core of my heart's feelings still just plain HURTS, if that's any clearer. And although I've gone through the bulk of my life operating on acceptance of how the family was, and off-setting some of that by building my own life more to MY liking and preferences, the way my Mum's and brother's deaths/aftermaths went, with no hope for changing even a smidgeon of how things went, THAT'S something I'm really not sure will EVER sit well enough for me to live with until I die myself. I have no answers...I'm just stumbling along, hoping for eventual shifts in perception.

[Penny1]

Yesterday was such a horrible day....

Yesterday, I saw my father twice. I haven't seen him for since I was told mom was poisoned.

On my way to work, in my usual routine, I stopped for coffee at tim hortons. As I came driving around the building, there he was.... it was hard to miss his red truck with 2 kayaks on top. He was in a group of people (all of his kayaking buddies) I never really realized the depth of my anger until that moment...

I contimplated running him over...ramming into his truck.... oh my god the rage within me was so out of control... the millions of thoughts went through my mind in a matter of seconds.... I drove by (he didn't see me) and then thought of how I should turn around and stop and tell all of his friends what he did, ask them if they knew he was a murderer. They don't know.... they should know... they just know his wife died.

The RCMP brought to light through one of my interviews with them that my mother was terminally ill. This is what he is telling people, and he is getting away with it.

And then to see him laughing carrying on in his little pathetic life with obviously no regards to what he did to my mother....the rage is overwhelming.

I cried all the way to work, thought maybe I should just hit a telephone pole, make it all go away....my months of relentless counselling flew right out the window... the pain of it so fresh it was just like losing her all over again....

Work was terrible, couldn't quit crying.... finally managed to get through the day and on my way home, there he was again.... I drove right by him on the road to my house.... is it fate that I should see him 2 times in one day? He lives in another town, I live out in the country so why is he on my road? Is God testing me, preparing me for when I have to face him in a court room? Is this karma? If so what have I done? My thoughts and emotions are reeling...

I just don't get it... maybe its time I need to face facts that I never will understand....

M. You are so right in all your wisdom.... acceptance will be both of our biggest challenges.... I feel for you, I wish you and I could figure it all out and be able to truly be at peace with what life has dealt us....

I know the first step we must both take is to realize that we have no control over our situations... it is all in the way we deal with the reality that counts.. giving into the anger is giving away our power... we must go on for we have no choice in the matter... life has dealt us this path and we must stumble down it over and over again... I know our lives will shift again somewhere in the future, it always does.... just keep stumbling and realize that we will fall down on that path, it is the strength and courage within us that will pick us back up when we fall and help us to continue on....

Fate has brought both of us here...God has put you in my path for a reason and maybe it is for you to pick me up when I fall (or vise versa)

Thank you, I cannot express how grateful I am your support....

[Maylissa]

Penny,

Wow...that was quite the sickening sight you encountered and I don't blame you for and can really relate to the feelings suddenly seeing your father stirred up. If it helps to know this, I think I would have felt pretty exactly the same way and have had a burning desire such as you did. If it helps, it would turn my stomach to see someone who was literally getting away with murder, chuckling it up, free on the streets, knowing they were guilty, knowing they knew they were guilty....and still laughing. UGH!!!!

My dad was the same way.....most often self-centred, cold, heartless, no visible conscience, even if he did cry lightly a few short times after my Mum died, it was interspersed with whistling absentmindedly, as if he was simply mowing the lawn or something mundane. Or he'd be yammering on about something related to some business he had to attend to, and looking and sounding so happy about it as if he'd found his REAL treasure and couldn't wait to get TO it. These were juxtapositions that creeped me right out and made me want to strangle him on the spot, once and for all....and it must have been so much worse for you. I'm surprised you even made it to work, or were able to stay!

You were wondering:

"is it fate that I should see him 2 times in one day?....why is he on my road? Is God testing me, preparing me for when I have to face him in a court room? Is this karma? If so what have I done?"

Since I always believe that there ARE no 'accidents' or coincidences, I think there must be a reason why you saw your father. What it is, though, would have to be up to your own hunches/intuition. You mentioned a few possibilites above, and another one might be as simple as you needing to start dispelling some of that rage, as upsetting as that may be to do...and what more direct trigger could there BE than actually seeing him somewhere? The one thing I don't think it is, though, is some kind of 'punishment' for something you've done. I think it has more to do with facing certain things within, and maybe even without. If you can see your way to using this event as being of use to yourself in some way, it may help you to figure out where it's leading you...as well as sort of depersonalize it enough to push through it.

Would it be correct to assume that no one KNEW previously that your mother was terminally ill? ( that's how it sounded ) If so, how did the RCMP come up with this?

Sometimes I think I sound sort of 'wimpy', in that I know there are many people who've had things much worse than I and still manage to do so well in their lives. Yet all it takes is listening to one person who had a great family life to plunge me right down into self-pity, anger at the unfairness and deep puzzlement as to WHY was I not as 'lucky'? It happens spontaneously before I can even think. It's gotten very old, and yet it's still pretty active and I find it really frustrating. I'm not sure what I have yet to do in order to be rid of this beast...I'm pretty sure I've felt every emotion there IS, a million times over, and yet still haven't managed to purge it all. It scares me that it's that deep-rooted. Maybe the best we can do is have the reaction, but learn to reason our selves out of it faster and more easily each time. I don't know....is that enough progress to satisfy? And I suppose making self-comfort out of knowing that there fewer family members who, should they die before me, I would even have to grieve for ( cuz there's no love lost there ) is somewhat helpful, although depressing in its own right. It's sort of a twisted 'silver lining', but it's all I got.

Sure, horrid stuff makes us 'tougher' - most say "stronger", but there's a fine distinction, at least that's how it feels to me inside, and I never feel strong, just, shall I say, more 'calloused', or more 'used to' horrible things. I don't really know what it's done for me that could be considered positive, except for being more quickly and possibly more fully compassionate than some other people about certain things, which is a good thing, but again....is it enough to make up for all the pain and rage? And again, I don't know. I guess if nothing else, it just might make it that much easier to give up this earthly plane when my time comes. But then even angels or whatever you want to call such spirits, must 'suffer' still, in some way, or else THEY wouldn't have compassion to help us, either!

I'm glad to be here for you. I've met some real gems of folks through grief boards and am just trying to give back in thanks for all the little and big ways others have helped me. I think it's invaluable to feel welcome, wanted and needed, by at least someone...otherwise, life seems pretty darn pointless. So whatever we can do for each other, at least I know THAT'S a good thing.