Angry

[Stallyn]

Derek,

I didn't want to admit to myself that it is the "fact" sometimes I want to blame

someone other than Satan, he has enough attention already. thank you for assuring me that the Devil did not take my wife, been such a long time since I heard that passage, I did forget to take my meds today again, I guess i like the

pain. I don't remember much either, must be the grief?

With love,

William

[dpodesta]

William,

The grief has a lot to do with it. Now go take your meds before Wendy sees this tomorrow, you know she will have a fit. Pray and ask God to help you remember them.

Love always

Derek

[Corinne]

Derek,

Thank you for that web site it is great. You can look at the verses in the different versions of the Bible which is great because you can understand some better than others. Thank you so much!

Hugs & prayers,

Corinne

William,

If you still did not take your meds, step away from the computer go get them and take them or I am telling Wendy.

[dpodesta]

No problem, I like it as well because of the different versions. If you don't understand one try another or several to help you out. Well I need to turn in if I am going to wake up in the morning. You all have a good night and God bless.

Love always

Derek

[Stallyn]

God bless you Derek, nice to have someone around to remind us the scriptures

OOPPS... Me bad, I promise to take them tonite and tomorrow, have a good nite Corrine..

William

[WendyJ]

(CLEARING THROAT OVER LOUD SPEAKER) William to the principles office please !!! Oooo are you in trouble !!!

Wendy

[dpodesta]

I told you William.

[WendyJ]

Hehehehehe !!!

Wendy

[kayc]

I love you guys, you are great!

William, remember that grief has us not quite in our right minds...will our right minds ever return? I don't know, I'm still looking for mine...

But that's okay, I got to keep my sense of humor and it's more important!!

[Stallyn]

AHHHHH BOY! I been so god until today, SO are you Kay, you are a awesome person! Hopefully our minds will ring home soon..

Hugs,

William

[DesertBob]

I certainly understand the "where is GOD??" sentiment. And I understand that you're "angry at the the God I gave my life to". Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

In my view, a lot of this anger comes from the fact that the church does a crummy job of properly setting expectations. At least churches of the evangelical persuasion, which I assume from your terminology is what you've been involved with. I'm put in mind of a song from my church days:

"Life is a symphony

Since the Man of Calvary

Turned my discord into song

Now I'm singing all day long ..."

Gimme a break! When they feed you unrealistic tripe like this, it's enough to make you angry even without something as huge as losing your spouse. This is nothing but cheap sales tactics (also known as "lies").

I was able to let go of an awful lot of raw, seething anger by just letting life be what it wants to be. We all want a kindly, anthropomorphic, doting God who protects us and enlightens us, but what we get ... well, the kindest face I can put on it is, he's more interested in our character than in our happiness, and one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other. Actually I personally would no longer put that kind of a face on it ... but I'd prefer not to offend others, some of whose faith may be all that's holding them together.

I guess what I'm saying is, "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". Deal with life as it is, not as you, or your church, wishes it to be. It's not very comforting but at least you won't be enraged. I have a MUCH easier time dealing with a God who is AWOL and/or disinterested ... that's a God who hasn't made any claims or representations or promises. He owes me nothing. That I can deal with. I can no longer deal with the "candy machine God" of my youth, however.

[dpodesta]

Bob,

I am sorry that you have had a bad experience with church. I know that there are a lot of preachers out there that preach all good stuff and life is going to be peachy. I believe that God is interested and he has the whole pictue. I like to look at it this way, if you think about your kids or when you were a kid. I have Carson do some things because I can see the whole picture where he can't. When I ask him to do something, a lot of times he is going to ask why because he can't see what is going on. He doesn't have the experience that I have when it comes to things I have him do that will help him when he is an adult. God is the same way, he sees the whole picture, he knows what is going on or is going to happen. For me, I miss Karen a lot, however I can see some things that I am glad Karen didn't have to go through. THe silver lining for me is that I now am able to put money back to afford Carson's education. I am no longer having to live check to check and can provide more for my son. It has opened a door for me for a career change that would have never been possible. Now don't get me wrong, I would trade it all in a heart beat to have Karen back. A lot of it has to do with the way you decide to look at life and how you choose to react. One thing is correct, we all are going to die at one point or another, it is just a matter of when and none of us knows when. That is just a fact of life, there is nothing we can do to change that. We don't have to have faith to be happy again nor do we need to believe that God cares in order for us to be happy again, but like you said it is faith that has gotten me through this and it is faith that has helped me keep it together for myself and my son. It is that faith that helps me get through each day knowing that when I die, I will see Karen again. Without that hope what is the point of living?

Love always

Derek

[DesertBob]

Hi Derek,

I am well familiar with all the baroque circumlocutions and rationalizations and they just don't do anything for me anymore. If they work for you, great ... you have to do whatever you have to do to get through this. For me it is too much to deal with the "impedance mismatch" between what the Bible promises and what life delivers. That way, for me, lies madness.

I would be delighted to see Linda again, and it would be a great comfort to me to know for sure that there will still be something recognizably "her" to reunite with someday. But for me, it is like life -- it will be what it will be, no one is consulting me about what it ought to be so I will just take it as it comes.

What happened to Linda did a lot more damage to my faith, ironically, than it did to damage Linda's faith. For her part, she believed that while God is clearly not involved in the moment to moment issues of life, he *is* there for the really big things ... such as the transition out of life. I hope she was right [sigh]. I certainly wasn't going to argue against it. That belief was a comfort to her. God bless her, she understood where I was with God and did not give me a hard time about it, either. Which just made me love her more.

Yes, there is an upside to everything. I joked with our pharmacist when I went in last month to get my two prescriptions rather than the 15 or so total I used to, that I am sorry, I know he must have had to lay a couple of people off since Linda died. We had a good chuckle about that. He is a good guy and really made an effort to keep the esoteric, off-label, experimental and otherwise "oddball" stuff in stock for us, and I know the constant experimentation / tweaking gave the poor guy fits. Most people take the same thing month after month. I really appreciate the extra effort he went to, rolling with the punches like that.

It's ordinary people like that, just being decent, that make a big difference. One little bit of true kindness goes a lot farther than a lot of pious bloviating. I have not given up all hope, I have simply placed it in what I consider to be more worthy objects: I pay attention to what people do rather than to what they say or believe. What was that Bible verse? "Faith without works is dead". And even works without faith, I'd add, can be pretty lively.

--Bob

[dpodesta]

I will agree, I look at how people act rather than what they say. You have an interesting way at looking at things. I don't want to sound like I am pushing my faith off on you or anyone else, however if voicing my faith can help just one person then it is worth it. If you find comfort in your views then more power to you, it is what works for you and that is all that matters.

Love always

Derek

[kayc]

Bob,

I am sorry you feel so much anger with regards to church or God. It is understandable. My recommendation is to take a break from it and it sounds like you have. I have found that God does care, even when we don't see it...and there's no one pious here on this site, we're all just very real people, stating our true feelings, going through all of our ups and downs together, like a family. This is one very special site, made so by the very special people on here. None of us are here with an agenda or to push our views on anyone, but we aren't apologetic for our views either. One thing I like about this place is that everyone shows respect to everyone else, and it doesn't matter if we believe the same or not. As Derek said, "if it works for you..."

I have been in church all my life...until after George died. It was very hard for me to continue when everyone's lives went on but mine, when I looked out over the pews (I was on the worship team, up front) and saw an empty space where he used to sit and smile at me...or worse yet, to see someone else in the spot where he'd been. I don't think most people mean to fail us, but people are not always good at knowing how to be there for us when they haven't been there themselves, and that is true of church people, friends, people anywhere. So I don't go to church much any more, but my faith in God is ever strong. I don't blame Him for all the ills in the world or the perceived wrongs in my life, but I do accept His help in getting through it. If you find we make religious references here, please excuse us, we don't mean to be offensive and we certainly aren't pushy, but some of us find comfort and encouragement in sharing what has worked for us. There are some people on site here that don't believe in God, and that's okay too, as far as I know they do okay and put up with the rest of us.

I hope you find comfort and strength here as the rest of us have...I know there are a lot of other "sites" out there, but to me, this one hit the jackpot for me.

And it's so true, I too place more emphasis on what people do than what they say.

[WendyJ]

Wow Kay I couldn't have written your post better, very well spoken.

Love,

Wendy

[DesertBob]

Kayc and Derek (and everyone),

I have no discomfort whatsoever with whatever you want to say about your faith, God, etc. I know that a lot of "disbelievers" have a bizarre knee-jerk hatred for people of faith, but I'm not one of them. For one thing I probably have more theological training than most of you, having attended a Bible institute for a year after high school, so I really do understand where you are coming from.

Besides I don't know that I qualify as a "disbeliever". If you looked out back here you would see the skid marks where I was dragged kicking and screaming from my comfortable little religious fairyland into the Real World . It's not like I *want* to be this way. I am not an athiest, nor even a classical agnostic. I am more in doubt about the character, nature and relevance of God than about his existence. I'm more like Spinoza than Madeline Murray O'Hare. I'm having trouble distinguishing God from Nature. I'm having trouble understanding why I as a created thing treat my children more kindly than he treats his.

He has big shoulders. I'm sure he can handle it.

At any rate, say on ... don't worry about my religious sensibilities. And I won't pounce on you for yours, though I might have a wry comment now and then ;-)

--Bob

[kayc]

Bob, That's okay, send your wry comments our way...I'll pass them on to Derek.

You know, I would probably feel the same way as you do except for the theology I ascribe to. I was taught that the world was created perfect, but when sin entered the world, it created a number of things taking place...one was that Satan was given reign within limitations (remember Job? Satan was allowed to do many things to him, but even so there were limitations). Physical things were no longer perfect, lives were of a shorter duration, bodies wore out, illnesses began. When God reclaims this world things will be set in balance again. That is all rather simplistically put. I do not know the answer to why there are children born only to starve. Why God doesn't put the hammer down on people who do nothing but wreak havoc in this world. Why the innocent aren't protected. Why good people don't live longer and bad people die younger. It's as if He's taken His hands off this world. But every once in a while, in answer to prayers of His people, He intervenes. Not all the time. I was praying when George died. I know He answers prayer...not always the way I want or think I need, but He answers...sometimes "Yes", sometimes "No", sometimes "Not now". I have a huge faith that comes from knowing Him...not knowing OF Him, but knowing HIM. It comes from having spent a lifetime with Him. My faith is not in church or man-made-up religion, but in Knowing God and His character. I know Him and love Him and trust Him, implicitly. When George died, it shook my faith to the core, as it often does the newly grieving, but I have worked through that...I know He has been with me every step of the way, even when it seemed He had absented Himself from me. I feel an overwhelming love and trust in Him, because He is. I know you are not atheist or agnostic, if you were, you would not have answered the way that you did. I totally understand where you are coming from and I hope you can know His true love and character someday, but for now, you are so very right...He has very big broad shoulders, and He can take it. He took it when I dished it out and railed against Him when I did not understand how/why He could stand by and let my George be taken from me. You say God is more interested in building our character than He is in our personal happiness, you are so very right about that. But happiness is something that can be elusive or non-lasting, whereas character serves us all of our days and can be made use of throughout our lives. It is character, wisdom, strength, and peace that I would ask for, even above my own personal happiness. That's all a bit much to comprehend when you've just lost your spouse. At two months...I can hardly remember where I was, I'd have to go back and read my posts from the summer of 2005...but I do remember being in somewhat of a fog, and the most intense excruciating pain...a roller coaster of emotions, anger, hurt, and confusion, to name a few. It all takes time, so much time...and all the more so for you, who have had a wonderful lady that you have spent a lifetime with. I wish you the best in your journey, my friend. I am glad you are expressing yourself and are active in your grieving, it is imperative to the progression of your healing, which can hardly have begun.

We welcome you to this site with the rest of us.

[DesertBob]

Thanks for your kind words, Kay.

I was taught and subscribed to the same theology and had a conversion / personal relationship experience with God from a young age. It's just that it has been pretty well beaten out of me, at least for the present.

I recognize the reality of evil, but I also recognize that as a Christian I used to hold out hope to people that although the world is fallen, God provides enlightenment, guidance, and help along the way for his people. I have been disabused of that notion by my life experience. I had been holding out a false hope to others. I regret having done that. I regret not having something superior with which to replace it, too.

To put this back on topic: what happened to my wife these past few years is obscene by any objective standard. It's going to take a long time for me to get around THAT.

Yes, I am so proud of her life and accomplishments in spite of everything; for the intense good years we had; for her many gifts to me; for the opportunity to give to her. For the very privilege of being part of her life.

But that the most virtuous and lovely person I will ever know had to suffer like that ... in ways I cannot even bear to speak of ... that's the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

I can handle her dying "before her time". What I'm struggling with is the relentless, endless suffering, without a single day off, for years, that seemed specially designed in some circle of hell with her particularly in mind -- and the complete absence of the slightest ease or comfort. He could have granted her that much at least.

I don't see how her experience was any different than a trusting child, baffled at why her loving daddy is standing by and allowing some thug to beat the living cr*p out of her.

To quote some scripture from our wedding day: "what shall separate us from the love of God? ... I am persuaded that neither height, nor depth, ... nor any other thing ... Shall separate us from the love of God."

We started our life together with that defiant cry, and I at least have ended it with a whimper. I'm not proud of it, but there you have it.

The only reason I even engage the question at all is that somehow Linda herself was much less vexed by it than I was, so I don't feel I have the right. I recognize that I am projecting my feelings onto her. But I can't help it. I'm a guy . We are designed to solve problems, "to protect and serve", all that sort of thing. In the end, I was no longer even capable of telling her it was going to be alright. Because I could see that it wasn't.

Whooee, I guess I've needed to blow THAT one off for awhile. Sorry for the mess. I'll go get a mop and clean up the room ...

--Bob

[dpodesta]

Bob,

I can certainly see why you are as angry as you are. You needed to get that out of your system and I am sure you will need to do it some more as time passes. That is what we are here for to listen and give you a chance to vent. I don't think you gave people false hope, it was what you believed at the time. I am not going to go into all of that right now. Just know that we are here for you, we are here to listen.

Love always

Derek

[Stallyn]

Edit.

[Corinne]

Bob,

You definitely have earned the right to be angry and you have also earned the right to let it out. Letting that anger out is a good thing and you even cleaned up after yourself!

Hugs & prayers,

Corinne

[suzanne]

KayC

Thank you for the loving spirit you always show and your guidanc.e Your words ring so true and give hope.

Bob

Please know each of us know how you suffer from the loss of your beautiful Linda. I told Will it would be allright when I knew deep down it wouldn't be but I had that little ray of hope and I didn't want him to give up. Maybe that was wrong. In the end, when the suffering was so great I knew I had to let him go, even though he couldn't speak to me at that point. I had to speak for him. Enough had been done to him, it was time to stop. It will haunt me until the day I die if I made the right decision but at the time, it was the best I knew to make. Don't apoligize for the mess. We all have to get it out and here is the most understanding and compassionate place to do it. I've mopped up many a night. We are here for you.

Suzanne

[DesertBob]

No, I think you did the right thing, Suzanne. I probably should have mouthed The Words myself. It's what we do to comfort each other and I suppose no one really expects you to actually know for sure or even believe it. God help me, I probably denied Linda some needed comfort. But I just couldn't make myself do it anymore. My rationalizer was worn out.

--Bob

I told Will it would be allright when I knew deep down it wouldn't be but I had that little ray of hope and I didn't want him to give up. Maybe that was wrong. Suzanne

[Stallyn]

Bob,

I know, its like a catatonic shock where reality and dream intertwine, you know I was so tired and couldn't do anything for my wife, felt so helpless since everyone around her took over. We didn't have a discussion about her dying, never knew why, all she said to me was that shes losing a part of herself of me,

in a way deep within it was the end. It was stressful for me, I couldn't even lift her anymore. though I believed she was getting well.