Who To Lean On?

[melina]

I had a strange and difficult experience the other day.

I've had periods of depression on and off throughout my teenage and adult years - not often, but enough to make life difficult and sometimes unpredictable. Several years ago I began seeing a psychologist during a bad patch, and I saw her again when my husband received his cancer diagnosis. My husband and I were both in shock and we went to her together, just once. After that, my husband decided he could manage without. I had a few more sessions and then quit. There was too much going on to spend time talking with a therapist.

After he died, I thought of going back to her, but decided instead to continue seeing the grief counselor who helped me at the hospital.

Here is the strange part. I was in the supermarket a few days ago, and someone came up to me. It was the psychologist I'd gone to. She told me her husband had died suddenly of a stroke a few months earlier. He must have died about a half a year after my husband. She began talking - very quickly - about her life, her grown sons, the second home they'd sold and about her retirement just before he died. She talked about how glad she was that she wasn't working - because she just couldn't handle listening to depressed people whining about their lives.

This was pretty awkward. I was, after all, one of those whining depressed people. And here I was listening to her grief story. She never asked me how I was doing, but I figured it didn't really matter. And I wasn't in the mood to talk about my grief. I was just there to shop for dinner. So I listened to her and then told her to call me if she needed someone to talk to.

As I left I thought - "why did I say that? I don't really want to talk to her". But it just came out. Now I feel as though all those sessions where I was pouring out my thoughts and experiences and sadness - were just fake sessions. She didn't really care about me. Then I thought about my grief counselor. Does she really care? She's been trying to wean me off the sessions. We started with twice a week, then once a week, and now once every two weeks. She suggested once every three weeks last time. Maybe she's sick of listening to me whine.

I have only a couple of good friends, and I know they're tired of my grief. I don't want to drag my kids down. They're busy with their lives. My siblings and my husband's siblings have been unsupportive and distant. So all I really have by way of clear support is this group.

Will you guys tell me when I've whined enough?

Melina

[MartyT]

Melina, dear, I can assure you that whatever you say here is NOT considered "whining." Besides, we all need to feel sorry for ourselves sometimes (especially when no one else is there to feel sorry for us) and this is one place where it is safe to do that.

Bear in mind that when you ran into the psychologist in the supermarket, she was not functioning in her former role as your therapist. From your description, this was an unexpected encounter in a public place and, knowing that you have the deaths of your spouses in common, I suspect that she was speaking to you as a fellow widow ~ as someone she assumed would understand where she was coming from ~ and not as a former patient of hers. I also suspect that she wasn't choosing her words as carefully as she would have done if she had been in a therapy session with you as her client, most especially when she used the "whining" word. Working with depressed people can be very challenging and draining, and I suspect that what she meant to say is that she didn't have the energy and the strength to do that while carrying the weight of her own grief, so she was grateful to be retired now. If you regret having invited her to call you if she needs to talk, prepare a line or two ahead of time so you'll be ready to take back the invitation if and when she does call (e.g. "I know I said that when I saw you in the market that day. Please forgive me, but now that I've had time to think about it, I realize that I'm really not ready to do that right now.")

As for the grief counselor you're seeing now, you have every right to expect that she is paying you all the attention that you expect and deserve, without judgment or reproach. That is the nature of the therapeutic contract you've established with her. If you trust her, if you have faith in her, and if you've been satisfied with your relationship and where you've come with her so far, I don't see any reason to question her recommendation to begin decreasing the frequency of your sessions with her. That is standard practice in grief counseling: to begin tapering off the sessions as you both recognize and agree that you've become stronger and better able to function on your own. But this should be a mutual decision, and if you have any doubts, if you feel as if you're being pushed too far too fast, you owe it to yourself to bring this up and discuss it with your counselor.

As for continuing to come here, I hope you've learned by now that there is no expiration date on your membership here, Melina. You are welcome here as long as you want and need to be with us. ♥

[mfh]

Hi Metteline,

I had to respond to you as I sensed your hurt. First of all you and I have talked on the phone many times and I NEVER feel like you are whining...I always sense that you are in deep pain, as am I, and we share that pain and this journey through grief. You never feel heavy to me.

As for the psychologist you bumped into. I agree with Marty. I quit seeing clients (after many years) a few months before Bill died because it felt like too much to me to carry my own pain, deal with the pain of clients and really important- to be present to them as they deserve and as I was used to doing. After Bill died, I KNEW that I was not able to see clients...their pain felt just too heavy for me and for the most part still does. I just started seeing a couple of clients who are NOT dealing with anything that feels too heavy for this exhausted sad person. It is more like coaching them. I am extremely cautious about who I see/will see and if I feel I can not deal with their issues, I tell them that on the phone or if in doubt...I tell them at the first session having informed them if appropriate.. (Bill's and my first sessions have always been free. I think your psychologist was speaking to you as a fellow widow (as Marty said also) and that she was unaware of how she sounded or what words she chose. It does not mean she saw you as a whining client. To me, it means she had no energy for anything less than death...the one she just experienced. Granted it would have been better all the way around if she had been aware but as you and I know...she was wrapped up in her own pain. She might be feeling angry also...we do not know. I think it was a compliment to you that she opened up to you and shared. It showed trust. I have known many many therapists in my 40 years of work and I can honestly say that they choose this work because they want to help...it is hard work. Now and then you meet a therapist who has not dealt with themselves and just can't cut it even if well intentioned but that has been rare in my experience. Some are obviously better than others.

The grief counselor is doing her job...helping you to become independent of the counseling but I agree that the decision needs to be mutual. In most situations my clients begin to do the termination process on their own. It is rare when I have made a decision where my input was not balanced by a client's input. You might talk to the grief counselor up front about wanting the process to be mutual instead of her telling you what will happen.

Metteline, you are a caring, lovely person who is in a lot of pain. NO matter what you post here I can not imagine anyone seeing you as a whining person. We all accept each other and the pain we are going through....you can post here anytime or call me anytime. I love chatting with you over the miles of ocean...it helps both of us because we both "get it". Peace, Mary

[melina]

Marty and Mary,

Thanks for your thoughts. Re-reading my post I felt a little ashamed. Here was this woman going through all her horrible firsts - the first anniversary of her husband's death coming up in a couple of months - and all I'm thinking about is myself. Talk about egocentric.

I think what made it so difficult was that while she was trying to talk away her pain, she brought up "positives", probably in order to make herself feel better. And her positives contrasted with my own life:

She was so glad her husband got to get to know all their grandchildren.

Mine didn't live long enough to have that pleasure.

She was relieved she was retired and didn't have to deal with clients.

I am a psychologist too, but I had to go back to work and deal with clients, or lose my job.

She was so pleased that they'd sold their second home for a million and she never has to worry about her financial situation.

I have to work two jobs to pay the mortgage on the one house we have.

She knew all this about me too. But I suppose that in her grief, all she can think about is her own pain. That's how it was for me. I do understand she's grieving and needed to find some comfort. Maybe she'll call, and though I feel very awkward about being friends with my former therapist,I suppose I should reach out a hand.

I just wish there was someone I could lean on - who would take care of me. In two weeks I'll be living in a completely empty nest. All four sons out a different universities. Just the dog and me left. A few weeks later I'm scheduled for surgery on my knee. I doubt the dog will pick me up at the hospital and make dinner for me, unless she's some sort of hidden genius.

Just missing my old life a lot right now.

Melina

[mfh]

Metteline,

No shame. You are in as much pain as she is and she was hitting on some of your pain...finances, grandchildhildren, job....

You used the words "should and awkward" in suggesting that if she calls you "should" consider helping her. It seems her pain and the sharing of it has alreadyy been difficult for you. Why not give yourself a break and do what I suggest you truly want to do which is just tell her that this is not a good time for you to help. Though it is not needed, reminding her that grief counseling might be good.

Take care of YOU first and then consider if you wish a relationship with her. Just my humble opinion. Swwitching gears from client to friend can be tricky inder the best of circumstances.

She knows how to find help.

Peace,

Mary

[Susie Q]

I remember having to concentrate really hard for a very long time in that first year on trying to stop words coming out of mouth that would have been hurtful, inconsiderate, selfish etc. Lack of sleep, pain, emotional drain, self-focus made it very hard to see beyond my own needs. I got through those times relatively unscathed but perhaps she just let her guard down a little when you met unexpectedly and that's what you got.

Don't let that comment affect you. You are entitled to feel all the negatives that come with this territory and anyone with compassion or experience of this nightmare will understand that sometimes you need to have a sounding board to unload it all onto.

Sharing - yes; giving and receiving mutual support - yes. Whining - never.

[mfh]

Susie

I love your response. It was hard for me also (still is sometimes) not to just blurt out anything that entered my brain....sometimes totally inappropriate. And both of them were off guard. I agree also that sharing pain here....as much and for as long as needed...is why we are here.

Mary

[kayc]

Melina,

I have a different take on this than you do. I'm sure she listened and cared when you were seeing her. But as you well know, when grief hits, it overshadows everything and we do not have it in us to be there for others or listen to their trivia. You need to remember that not everyone that came to see her had a pressing problem, some think if they break a nail it's a big deal...and talk about it at length. Right now she doesn't have the capacity for others that she once did. She will undoubtedly get it back and when she does, it will be with much more compassion and comprehension than she ever could have had before.

You told her to call you if she needed to talk because you're a caring person, you've been there, and you know how it feels...and you recognize her need to be heard.

Try not to personalize her remark, remember, when you're newly grieving, you're not in your same state of mind as you were before. I sure wasn't! It was all about ME because it takes every ounce of our strength just to survive it.

Also, if you don't feel you have it in you to minister to her, refer her to your grief counselor, as a professional, she should understand.

[melina]

Thanks again Mary, and Suzie and Kay,

I don't think I'll be my ex-therapist's shoulder to cry on. It just doesn't feel right to reverse roles that way. I said lot of strange things too when my grief was fresh, but I don't think I ever unloaded my grief on a client or ex-client. I did meet a few of them just after he died, and they offered their condolences, but I just thanked them and that was it.

I live in a small country and a small town, and and I know most of the mental health professionals in my district. Many of us have been in some sort of therapy over the years, so after a while it's hard to tell who are the clients and who are the therapists within our group. It's a little murky, so technically I could lend my shoulder to this woman. Still - I don't think I can willingly allow myself to be open to more pain than I have now. I have to protect myself too.

Thanks for all your thoughts. As I said, I'm doing fairly well. I can get through most days without crying, I can work, I can do stuff around the house - even catch mice (I found out yesterday). But life is still not what I'd call "good". I'm extremely lonely - but just for one person, my husband. I miss him so immensely. Now and then I'm overwhelmed by my loss and sit down for a real sob. I don't know if life will ever feel really good again. I can manage on my own, but I sincerely wish I didn't have to.

Melina

[mfh]

Metteline,

I think you just decided to listen to your own voice and intuition. I know the small town thing....I can be in my physician's office at 11am, having lunch with his wife at noon, and perhaps at a pig roast (yuck) at their home that evening. Professional boundaries get blurred in small towns and it is our job to keep them as sharp as possible but they will remain blurred to some degree. I refrain from seeing clients who live in town...it is a rare exception if I do but I have that luxury because there are so many small towns around and then the larger Madison where hundreds of other therapists work. I also stopped doing any treatment from a few months before Bill died until just in the past month or so...and I am carefully choosing who I work with (I have the luxury in private practice to choose and I keep it at the level of coaching right now) so that I can take care of myself first. It sounds like you are doing the same thing.

We somehow get through these horrific events in our lives. I also sit and sob but not as often. There is a constant sadness and emptiness and tears are always sitting behind my eyes and more all the time in spite of looking otherwise when I am out working or whatever. It sounds like you are doing a bit better also.

Peace, friend

Mary

[kayc]

Melina,

It sounds like you are listening to your inner self and paying attention to it and that's good. I didn't meant to infer that you should listen to her, I was just acknowledging what transpired. I think it's good to keep professional boundaries and agree with Mary on that. It wasn't good for her to unload on you, but having been through grief, I think we can all understand it...I certainly wasn't in my right mind that first year or two.

I also agree with your statement that I can make it on my own, I just wish I didn't have to. And I also get lonely for George. Just last night I was sitting on the couch imagining what it'd be like to have him there...and this is my seventh year! It gets better to a point but some things we just have to live with. I wish there was a magic cure but I don't know of any, it takes so much effort to get through this.

[Dwaynecg]

Dear Melina,

I believe when your old therapist saw you, she felt safe. To let out emotions, that maybe she had no one else who would understand, what she is going through. We are, YOU are, she knew that. No matter how it came out she was reaching out for some support, from someone she knew under stood. I always reach out to people who have just lost a loved one, whenever I can. I give them comfort that what they are feeling is very normal. I think it is sad that you let that opportunity slip by, so what if you both shed tears together. I have many times, and I know I will many more times. We just do not help each other on here, but others in and around our life, no matter what the pain it may bring us. It also helps us to heal, from the inside out.

My grief counselor, I trust her 100%, she calls me almost every week to check in on me, just to make sure I am doing ok. I am very grateful for her. My church I reach out to others in need, it may not even be over a loss, I always look for ways to help. It helps me grow into a better person, and a better nurse down the line.

God Bless

Dwayne

[melina]

Dwayne,

Thanks for your thoughts, but I'm doing what's right for me. As a psychologist I work with people who need help all day.

I'm entitled to take care of myself now and then.

You do what you think is right, but please don't feel it's necessary to preach right and wrong to me.

Melina

[mfh]

Metteline,

I agree with your decision and am so glad you listened to your own voice. Mary

[Dwaynecg]

Dear Melina,

I am so sorry you thought I was preaching to you. That was not my intent at all. I know what it is like to go though grief alone, no one come by. Not one of Pauline's family members have ever step into our home after she pasted. Her oldest sister has not called once. So I have done my grief work alone, and on HOV, and working the Hospice support groups. Those have helped the most. Getting involved back in my church. Death re-wrote my address book. I am just built different is all. Nothing you did was wrong, it was what you felt, but after, you question if the people you were seeing were taking you serious or not. Do your patients question you?

This past August I met a man named Dennis. I had not talked with him for maybe a minute or less and he opened up to me. He had lost his wife also. Something drew me to this man sitting down by the water. We talked for about 1 1/2 hours. Every week he would come down there. Then he told me that no one had touch him in his grief the way I was able to. I call him once a week to make sure he is doing ok. It is amazing how we can make an impact in someone's life when they are at the bottom. Now he says he cannot wait for the call, so he can get his weekly dose of Dwayne, to lift him up. That Is what I do. Not everyone understands it, I just say it is a gift I was given. You do yours in your office and you are I am sure really good at it. People are just drawn to me, my gentle manner, always a smile, always a positive attitude, it has been that way all my life. Now after Pauline passed, I have found a way to use it, to help others in need. I respect your feelings, I understand when you say where were they for me. I know I have to go to work, but now not just a job, but a passion to become a nurse. I just got my grade for Anatomy and I scored a 97 on a 500 question final. I am on my way.

God Bless

Dwayne

[HAP]

Dear Melina,

I have been off-line for a few weeks and just read through the entire posting here at one sitting. I largely agree that the reason for what she said to you was entirely coming from her own pain. I have been so guilty of this at times in the last year. I think lots of us engage in acting-out and other painful behaviors because our souls are in such turmoil that everything hurts and has to have an outlet. We have to forgive ourselves when we do so, and forgive those in similar anguish when they do them to us.

I also agree with those who say you have to take care of yourself before you are in a position to take care of others. I worry about the damage I could have done--could still do--given the pain that wells up inside me and emerges without warning. I did nearly fatal damage to one very old friendship without intending to last fall. And there was nothing like the emotional wound on the other side I had to further complicate things. Your inner voice is something to listen to here. It knows you well. When--or if--you are ready to go there you will know. In the meantime, we all say things to try to ease the griefs of another. Rarely do those offers get picked up, so I would be surprised if you get that call from her looking for help. Just making the offer eased her mind in that moment. You said what she needed to hear at that moment. I think none of us can look at this pain in another and not offer some immediate solace in that moment of need. But it is often all we can do--and it has to be enough.

You were among the first people that I met here and became comfortable with. Our losses, being of similar age and kind, opened me up in ways I did not expect. Thank you for that. And your troubles here have also caused me to look at what is going on with me in different ways than I otherwise might have. Thank you.

Peace,

Harry

[amw]

I don't think she is trying to get rid of you in the sense you are thinking or feeling, it is just that they have kind of a set way of doing things and wanting their clients to move on in life. The reason I know this is I'm going into grief counseling and have learned the way some of them work. We all are whiny from time to time, and that's okay. You suffered a great loss, and everyone grieves in their own way and in their own time! Take it easy on yourself, give yourself the time you need, but keep moving forward, and remember it's okay to feel what you are feeling! Whine if you want or need to from time to time. I'm whiny here and there too, because I'm lossing my significant other.

[melina]

Thanks all for your replies. However, I think this discussion is veering off into unintended directions and it's making me confused.

Dwayne - I'm glad you have your church and your ability to attract other people whose spirits you can lift. Unfortunately I don't have the energy to be anyone's "weekly dose". But congratulations on your nursing exam.

Amw - Thanks for your perspective on grief counselors. I agree my grief counselor is just trying to help me.

Harry - I'm pleased you feel comfortable around me here in cyber-space. It's good to hear I might have said something helpful rather than just rant about my grief. And it made me feel a little better to think that I might have done enough for this woman just offering to help. So thanks for your thoughts.

She hasn't called, but to my surprise, we did have two more chance meetings - in the same supermarket. She stopped me to talk again (My hiding place behind the potatoes and carrots was obviously not a very good one), and she seemed a little calmer, less intense. She even asked me how I was doing. I said I was fine. Just after she left I bumped into another widow - I don't know her well, but enough to say hi. She stopped to talk about her grief too.

The moral of this story is - if you ever want to get out and meet widows - perhaps even widowers - go to the supermarket.

Melina

[mfh]

Especially near the carrots and potatoes.

I have been shocked at how many widows there are. 175,000 every year just in the usa. And yet the world can not talk about death....

[HAP]

Dear Melina,

I have not laughed like this in a long time. Great punch line. After what I spent my night writing this was a perfect tonic--and I have to go grocery shopping tomorrow... Wonder what widows and widowers I'll encounter.

And next time you doubt that you are getting better--just go back and read that last bit. Neither of us could have written that line a year ago.

You are beautiful.

Peace,

Harry

[mfh]

Metteline,

Ditto to Harry's comment. I see changes...in all of us...and yes, we will grieve the loss forever at the same time as we heal a bit.

Mary

[Susie Q]

You are right, Harry.

Today, I told someone, in answer to their question, that I feel 'good'. Haven't said that in 29 months.

And what is more,I really meant it as far as it relates to my physical wellbeing.

Still working towards 'really good' or 'great', and doubt I'll ever get close to what was my usual 'fantastic' but it's a start...Susie Q

[HAP]

Me too.

[melina]

I can't say I ever really feel good, but I no longer feel devastated. My sense of humor comes back to me now and then - so that must be positive.

Now if this loneliness could just take a break for a while...

Melina

[Dwaynecg]

Dear Melina,

Laughter is the best medicine we have. I remember when I was able to laugh again. It was the best day in a long time. Loneliness, is something I do not feel. Yes I miss Pauline and the human contact we had, but I feel her every day with me. When I am at hone I am at complete comfort. From the very first night I slept in our bed on her sheep skin, and again at complete comfort. I think it is the very close bond we share. Everything in our home we did as a team. Her ideas, her designs, my work. Just 2 days ago I came across a tape in our camcorder, from about 6 years ago and Pauline was taping all the work I had done in our place, and she was so proud or the work and her design. Of course I cried. I am so glad I found that. As long as my heart beats in me she lives on, so no I am not alone. I may be one person, but with two hearts inside, hers and mine. My chest is a blazing fire with Pauline with me all the time, helping me, guiding me. It is real as real can be. I wish everyone could feel what I feel. True comfort, True peace. That is my hope I offer others.

God Bless

Dwayne