Lost My Heart Dog One Week Ago Today

[Kacy]

Kacy,

We are seeing the regular vet tomorrow - not the cardiologist. Our regular vet is very supportive (doesn't always show as much compassion as I would like, but I think she tries to be professional). I did receive a card from their office as well as one from the one internal med vet who did some testing on Allie. She is the one who only prescribed about 1/4 of the lowest dose of the lasix back in January, so wasn't of much help. Wonder how they got to be vets sometimes, and she has been around a long time.

Nothing at all from the cardiologist - no card, no phone call. She first saw Allie about 2 years ago for just baseline testing of her heart, something recommended as the Cavaliers get older. I would probably faint if she ever apologized or admitted to being wrong about Allie. Of course, she would be worried about a lawsuit, but even if she knew that was not an issue I think her ego would keep her from saying she was wrong. We still have 2 weeks to wait for the final autopsy report but I doubt it's going to change anything.

We are taking Molly, our other Cavalier with heart problems, to another cardiologist who is 2 hrs away on Thursday. I really can't see going back to this same one, but then if I switch, I put us in a position of having to drive 2 hrs in an emergency or trying another ER - and we already had a discussion about how bad some of them are. If it was during our regular vet's office hours, I think the new cardiologist would work with them. But after hours, we would be stuck - and my dogs always seem to have problems after hours.

So, please send some good thoughts on Thursday that all goes well with Molly's appt and that we like the new cardiologist and, most importantly, make the right decisions.

Mary

[Kacy]

I had sent a little thank you card to the vet tech who was working the Sunday we brought Allie into ER. Allie was already gone when we got there, but I had them try to resuscitate her. I asked to see her again and after waiting a while, they led us into an examining room where Allie's body was laid out so beautifully. Then this vet tech, who we had seen there previously on other visits to the cardiologist, came in with a paw print mold she had made for us. You could tell she was so sincere and truly cared and understood. She was also the one who carried Allie's body out to the car the next morning when we were going for the autopsy. Again, you could tell she knew what we were going thru.

So, I decided to send her a thank you card. That was on Monday of last week. At that point, I had heard nothing from the cardiologist but had received cards from my regular vet and two other vets that had seen Allie. On Friday, almost 3 weeks after Allie's death, I get a card from the cardiologist and her vet techs. I almost felt that it was sent in response to my card. The one vet tech who was always somewhat rude to us said how shocked she was that Allie died. This is the vet tech that I spoke to the morning after taking Allie to the ER when I told them she was going into congestive heart failure. The ER vet did an xray and said there was no change and that it was her lung disease - not congestive heart failure.

This particular vet tech called the next day and I tried to tell her the same thing because Allie's respirations had gone up from one day to the next - almost a sure sign of chf. She said no, it was her lung disease. I told her the inhaler treatment that we had just started for the lung disease seemed to make Allie worse, and she said to keep giving it to her because it sometimes takes 2 weeks to work. We are still waiting for the final autopsy report, but so far it is looking like congestive heart failure.

I have to call at some point to cancel my other dog's appt for next month for her checkup with the cardiologist. I hope to have some definite answers by then about Allie's death, and if it turns out to be congestive heart failure, I am going to have to say something to the effect that I don't know why this girl was so surprised at Allie's death - I told her Allie was going into chf but she wouldn't listen. If nothing else, I think they should have kept Allie there overnight in oxygen when we brought her and I blame myself for not insisting that they do.

I'm having such a hard time with this loss. I feel like I'm just going thru the motions of living.

Mary

[kayc]

It sounds like you need a definitive answer before you can have closure to this having happened...even then, that doesn't equate to "being over it" because I don't think we ever really do get over it, but just learn to live with the changes we now have in our lives.

I hope you know you are the best mommy in the world and if I were a dog, I'd pick you!

[Kacy]

Kay - You are too kind! I don't feel like the best mom - I feel like a mom who should have done more, but didn't know what to do. Allie was not herself the night before she died. I was up half the night with her and couldn't get her to settle down. I kept thinking I needed to take her to the ER but we had been there several nights previous to that and it just ended up with us wasting a lot of money and gaining nothing.

Sorry you are having some sleeping issues. Stress will definitely do that. Hope things are resolved soon.

Marty - I did hear back from a veterinary pathologist that I had contacted about going over the final autopsy report with me. He was so understanding about Allie's death - kind of surprised me. Anyway, he asked me to send the final report when I get it and he will give me some idea of the cost involved. May end up being more than I am willing to spend because I don't know what the future holds for my other Cavaliers and kind of feel like the money may need to be spent there. But if it is anywhere near reasonable, I will go ahead with it.

If not, I have my regular vet who will go over it with me. The pathologist that actually did the autopsy does not go over the report with you. It is very reasonably priced and so does not include that. It is up to you to find someone to go over it with you. I also have a holistic vet I had consulted with by phone, and she is going to give her opinion also. She has Cavaliers and also has a cardiologist that she knows well. So, I'm hoping she will run the report by him to get his opinion.

There are very few board certified veterinary cardiologists around and so you don't know who knows who. When Lucy died suddenly last year, I contacted a cardiologist clear across the country and by mistake, faxed over paperwork that included the cardiologist's (not the same one as Allie's) name and that cardiologist right away said how good she was! On the other hand, this cardiologist that the holistic vet knows questioned why Allie wasn't on a certain medication when she happened to mention to him that she wasn't so seems to not be afraid to speak his mind, even if he doesn't agree with another vet. Not saying he was right, but at least he spoke up about it. Just hope to get some answers in the end, but doubt if I will find peace of mind.

Mary

[kayc]

So good to find a vet of any kind that's not afraid to speak their mind! They seem to band together just as doctors do and dentists do, even if they feel the prescribed treatment was amiss.

[Kacy]

Kay,

I am planning on faxing a brief summary of Allie's treatment to the holistic vet when I send the final autopsy report. I'm hoping that she will talk to the cardiologist she uses about it to see if he has anything to add. Unfortunately, they already have Allie's records that my regular vet had faxed to them before I had a consultation with this holistic vet a month or so ago, so they probably include the name of the cardiologist who treated Allie. Whether that will affect his comments remains to be seen. But at this point, I'm thinking that anything either the holistic vet says or her cardiologist friend says is less likely to be influenced by a professional relationship with Allie's cardiologist - something I can't say for my regular vet. This referral business definitely gets in the way of the truth, IMO - maybe not outright lying when questioned, but when you don't have a medical background they can pull the wool over your eyes much, much easier.

All I want are honest answers to my questions, so am trying to find people not connected to Allie's treatment at all to hopefully get them. I honestly think life was easier back in the old days where you trusted everything the doctor said. Maybe ignorance is bliss....

Mary

[Maylissa]

Mary, yes, it's a matter of fact that once you have knowledge about something, you can't really UN-know it, and there are both pluses and minuses to that. But I've thought the same thing dozens of times myself, yearning for the days when I was able to experience more happiness due to my ignorance about whatever. But life is also a lot more complicated now due to the myriad of extenuating factors around any one issue, yet it all boils down to how messed-up the whole world has become, and sadly, we can't seem to change everything all at once, or without great struggle.

In cases like yours, I don't even think it's just a "referral business" that's the root of the problem per se, but a value system problem. If someone has higher inner integrity and hence, higher values by which they live and act, even professional associations' influence won't stop them from doing what's right, or at least a step up from "the usual." Unfortunately, honesty sure isn't very lauded anymore, and those who are more honest, are often made to suffer for it. It's all backwards. Still, I hope someone in this whole scenario decides to take that higher road and help you get the answers you're seeking. If the squeaky wheel can still get the grease, let's hope your tenaciousness plays a big enough factor in it all.

At the very least, you deserve to find out if your own senses were/are trustworthy (as I highly suspect they ARE), as I think that's really your overriding concern here -- "can I really TRUST my intuition + accumulated knowledge + other senses to be telling me the truth in such situations?" That being said, I guess you also need to ask yourself how even a big "yes" on that might help you get what you're after in future, if vets won't listen to, take seriously, and respect what you're telling them you believe needs doing next time around? Would they listen harder if you have proof positive that you were RIGHT all along in Allie's case, or will it make them more defensive of their overblown, professional egos? Or is it mainly that Inner Trust Factor that you need in order to be even more effectively assertive in dealing with them when it really counts?

I don't know....maybe we ALL just need to take lots of Assertiveness Training classes to really help us navigate all these scenarios when we're faced with life or death situations, and even otherwise!!

[kayc]

Some of them got confused when they graduated and took the hypo-critic oath.

[Kacy]

Hypo-critic could be more like it.

I got the final report back today from Allie's autopsy. I don't understand most of it and will have to have my regular vet explain it all. But it states the cause of death as histiocytic pneumonia and congestive heart failure. I don't understand why they didn't see this on the xray taken a few days before her death. Hopefully, I will get some answers somewhere. I keep thinking this is something that she could have been treated for.

I do think assertiveness training might be helpful. I truly do not understand a lot of the medical terminology and sometimes get lost when listening to these vets trying to explain things. But I am tired of feeling like I have to be the vet myself. That's what I'm paying them to do. Anyway, will be picking up the xray tomorrow to send to the pathologist I found online to get an idea of what his fee would be to go over all of this with me. The thing I don't know is if he will really be able (or, even more importantly, WILLING) to tell me if this is something they should have diagnosed and treated. I don't expect my regular vet to answer that question without a lot of hedging.

Mary

[Kacy]

One other thing that is slowly sinking in - when you say that your dog should not have died, that you feel the vet did not treat her properly, many people have a tendency to look at you like you just don't want to accept reality. That is true - I don't want to accept that Allie is gone. But, at this point anyway, I still feel she would still be here if she was given the proper treatment and medication. Now, after I consult with a pathologist and 2 other vets and am able to better understand the autopsy report, maybe I won't think that way. But right now, I do. I have had people say that we all feel our dogs leave us too soon. Yes, we do.

One of my dogs was with us for 15 1/2 years and it was still too soon. But I knew in my heart that his quality of life was not good. It was still a difficult decision to make. I kept praying that he would just die in his sleep, but it didn't happen. Of course, after we let him go, I felt so guilty because I had made that decision, but I knew in my heart it was the right one. It's all together different with Allie and how she died. It just amazes me that people put their vets on such a high pedestal that everything they say must be correct and true. They would never think to question anything.

It's just like this yearly vaccinations some vets insist on giving. People never question that and if you say to them that they might want to do some research before vaccinating their 14 year old dog with kidney disease, they look at your like you must be crazy - because their vet said the dog should get the vaccination. I have to practically put duct tape on my mouth when I sit in the waiting room of the vet's office with one of my dogs and I hear people who are checking in saying they are there for the vaccinations for their dog and here is this old dog that doesn't really need another vaccination. People are afraid to question the vet or say that they don't want the vaccination. I actually told my vet years ago before I switched my dogs there that I do not give yearly vaccines or even every 3 year vaccines because I don't believe in them and I didn't want to be pressured into giving them.

Didn't mean to go off on a tangent there, but I guess I'm just fed up with some people and (many) vets. Yes, Allie was 9 (not really young for a Cavalier) and she had heart disease, and if she was being given sufficient medication for that (and now apparently from the autopsy report - pneumonia as well), maybe she would still be here with us. I don't know if it is possible that she had the pneumonia from the beginning when her breathing issues started (back around the holidays), but if so, then I truly believe she would still be here. Allie was a spunky little thing, and I don't believe she was ready to die.

Mary

[Maylissa]

Aaaah, Mary, as I'm sure you know, I can very much relate to, and agree with, all you've said here. And any "tangent" you like is certainly allowed! Grief is never a simple, straight line, after all.

Like you, I'm really "fed up" with so much of this utter nonsense, too. How long do we have to wait until more people wake up and smell the coffee? I've been pretty patient for 2 decades and counting, but am getting more impatient by the day now, since that general ignorance and resistance that remains so prevalent only makes those of us more "in the know" feel more isolated, and therefore less supported. I'm just weary of waiting, having foolishly thought years ago that, "well, next time I suffer a big loss, there surely will be more this, that, or the other out there for me..." But, no...hasn't really been the case, and in fact, some aspects have even gotten worse imo, e.g. the amount of incompetency in whatever fields, including vets. It's not simply frustrating to deal with, but as with instances like yours, may actually take someone's very life. So how can we be expected to "accept" that? Any sort of acceptance is hard enough as it is when it comes to death, but complicating factors make it so much worse!

It's certainly true that the unknowns also cause us far more pain. I've just been reading more (again) on the "why's" and the "search for meaning" in loss, and must admit I'm finding it even tougher than ever before to trust I'll discover some answers...or at least any I can really live with. The inner anger and frustration this causes can be relentless in its tight grip, and also knowing that it's damaging to our bodies, our psyches, and various energy bodies as well, only makes me panic all the more, in wishing it gone asap! That all just puts more pressure on us to "hurry up and heal," which I know isn't how this process works. Rock and a hard place.

"But it states the cause of death as histiocytic pneumonia and congestive heart failure. I don't understand why they didn't see this on the xray taken a few days before her death."

I'd be wondering exactly the same thing, frankly. If it were early stages (of either), I can imagine it maybe being missed on x-ray, but if either was bad enough to cause death so soon thereafter...how could it not have been picked up? I wonder, given what happened with my own boy, what was the condition of their x-ray machine? And I imagine you're also going to have to ask for a more thorough explanation of the "histiocytic" pneumonia, since I see there are different types (and therefore, causes) of that medical term, and I'm sure you'll want to know to which type they're referring. Of course, I see one type they call "cancer-LIKE," and have to just snort -- what the heck could that even mean?, really, it's so vague and fuzzy a description.

It's only a small "good thing," but I notice Allie's autopsy results came back quite quickly, so at least you didn't have to wait too long for those. I only mention this because apparently, by comparison, my dead brother's results will take about 3 months, if you can believe it! So while it's likely only because animal autopsies probably aren't ordered nearly as often, at least they come in well ahead of humans'. That's quite a welcome switch for change, I'd say.

"But I am tired of feeling like I have to be the vet myself. That's what I'm paying them to do."

Again, I agree wholeheartedly, and have said the exact same thing before on several occasions, myself. I've said that in every instance where I felt (or absolutely knew) there was shoddy work done, in whatever sector, but certainly the medical field should be one of THE most important areas where this doesn't happen as often, since it's so critical. And considering that the veterinary field is also a wholly privatized, unsubsidized area, so we're paying through the nose for care (in most instances), to my mind that makes it even more unacceptable to receive deficient service. We the grieving already have enough of a sense of "it's not FAIR!" to contend with, never mind that being compounded by the supposed medical "professionals" and "specialists." Of course I've also noticed that many so-called "specialists" often don't seem to be all that bright or competent in their "well-studied" niches, either. In fact, I've experienced being asked for my expertise &/or skills many times, by these very kinds of people, who I've expected to far surpass my own abilities and knowledge, only to discover how ignorant they really can be in their own, chosen fields!!! Whaaaat?!?! It's just a growing phenomena everywhere, I think. Not that knowing that helps us much, when we're still left wanting.

I'm still hoping beyond hope that at least you get enough answers, though, and without having to struggle so hard to find them. Maybe an eventual ACing session could end up helping you find out if Allie's departure was really one of her "time to go" windows or not, and how she feels about the whole thing.

[kayc]

I truly hope you get the answers to your questions because you deserve to know. I don't know if the answers will help you but I hope they do, the big question being, would there have been hope?

[Kacy]

Thank you, Kay. I really will be surprised if any of the 3 vets are totally honest with their opinion, although I do have some hope that one of them will be. I do know firsthand that congestive heart failure can be treated in dogs. Molly, my other Cavalier, not only had congestive heart failure but also ruptured a major chord in her heart (something that seems to be relatively common in dogs with heart problems) and she is still here with us. This happened last summer. If you were to walk into my home right now, you would never know there was anything wrong with her. Sometimes I have to remind myself that her heart is really bad because she shows no sign of heart problems or any other health problems. Of course, all of that can change, and we have no idea how long she will continue to do well. She is on a lot of medication, but the new cardiologist we took her to last week is going to slowly lower it to see how she does.

That's all I would have wanted for Allie - to get proper treatment and medication and be given a chance, but for some reason, her treatment seemed to be a 3 ring circus. We had problems in Molly care also. There was no one there to do the echocardiagram that I asked for when I first brought her in, so they tried just the regular treatments for her for the congestive heart failure and couldn't figure out why she wasn't responding. It wasn't until two days later that they actually had someone do the echo, and that's when they found she had ruptured the major chord in her heart. I told them when I brought her in that something drastic had occurred, but they apparently didn't believe me. So, we were very, very lucky with Molly that we didn't lose her also.

Mary

[Kacy]

Maylissa,

You are very correct about the inner anger and frustration. It does get a hold on you that is almost impossible to let go of. I feel like I am a different person now after losing Allie and Lucy and can't seem to let go of either the anger or come to terms with the frustration.

As for the xray machine, I believe that this is a topnotch facility - at least from what I have seen of it - but I could be wrong. It was totally remodeled a few years back. Of course, I have never actually seen the xray machine and probably wouldn't know if it was up to date or not. I will be sending the digital xray to a veterinary pathologist probably in a week or so, and it will be interesting to see if he has an opinion about the quality of it. I can't seem to find out exactly what histiocytic pneumonia means. I have seen the word "cancer" mentioned when trying to find the meaning of histiocytic but I don't think it necessarily means cancer. Hopefully, I will be meeting with my regular vet next week and then the other 2 after that.

I'm so sorry the autopsy will take 3 months. I didn't realize it could take that long. Makes things even harder for you because I imagine that will hold up everything else?? It would wonderful if you were able to find a GOOD lawyer, but we all know that is almost about as easy as finding a good vet. There are some, but very, very few, IMO. They are extremely good at taking your money, but generally that's about it.

As for trying the AC, I am seriously thinking along those lines. Did some checking and came up with one that I may try. What I liked is that she states if you don't feel within the first 10 minutes that what she is saying makes sense in relation to your pet, she will end the call and there is no charge to you. As I said before, I have probably tried 4 or 5 different ones over the years (unfortunately, I never kept track of names) but there was not one of them that said even one thing that made any sense to me.

Mary

[Maylissa]

I know this will likely be distressing, but since this has now happened to you (and more than once), I came across this invaluable site today, so thought I should pass it on to you.....as well as to ALL OTHER animal parents who should definitely read it through, preferably before, but certainly after a tragedy occurs with their furbaby. Full of excellent info, including what to do and how to do it, if you ever have any issue with your vet, as well as means to help pre-check any US vet out beforehand. If only we had the same kind of investigative resource for Canadian vets, too! However, much of the info applies to anywhere. I've definitely bookmarked this one!

I should post this link under a New Topic as well, for easy finding, but just don't have the time right now, so if anyone else wishes to, feel free!

http://www.vetabusenetwork.com/savetoc.htm

This story was also interesting...

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/PrintArticle/Publisher-s-Dog-Sues-Vet-in-Kentucky

[Kacy]

Maylissa,

I am just now reading over the links you sent. I had to stop to post this reply. I read the first link over about the cat who died 16 years ago due to improper care of the Texas vet. When I went back to the home page of the website, my heart skipped a beat. The cat died 16 years ago - on the very same day that we lost Allie. April 26.

I will definitely save the link and will be reading further. It's hard to believe that the original case was never proven due to the deciding vet who basically did not allow it to continue. In this case (as opposed to Allie's situation), there were things even someone who is not a vet but reasonably knowledgeable would find upsetting - as in putting a cat under who had kidney issues without giving fluids. In Allie's case, I truly believe that more should have been done since she was seen by them multiple times since January for the labored breathing (and for 2 years prior to that for routine care).

Thank you for posting. So ironic that she died the same day.

Mary

[Kacy]

Just one other thing. I have to go back and reread some of the information, but I thought it was interesting how it is possible to manipulate a google search to hide information. How someone would do that is way over my head, but I often wondered about one of the medications that my dogs were on that I just can't seem to find a bad report on - only glowing reviews. Of course, with heart disease there is always the "sudden death" that can naturally occur so it seems when a dog dies on this medication, it is always attributed to that. Don't know how to dig deeper to find information though.

Mary

[Maylissa]

Mary, I know it's a huge amount of info on that page, and of course you don't have to read more than you can handle. I only had time to read little bits here and there, myself, but just thought it was a great page for reference, whenever.

Sorry about it making your heart skip a beat...I know how that can sting and jab. But there's another, and 'happier,' way you could look at that, too, one that I've become very familiar with myself through the years. Although it won't stop the pain, what if 'coincidences' like seeing Allie's "angel date" are signs of continuing connection (ADCs) from her to you? What if she's asking you to acknowledge her presence with you as you go through all this upsetting stuff about her crossing?

I know my furkids have both used (and still do) that specific form of communication with me, along with other repetitive (and other types of) signs....and particularly when I really, really need their ongoing support. Sabin started a similar one right away after his transition, except he sends his age, 13 -- from his living 13 yrs + 13 days beyond what I'd roughly determined were both their birthdates. Plus, "13" is classically linked to black cats in particular as well, so that very specific # holds GREAT meaning for me, personally. And of course he would know that. So using specific #s has become quite the Family Classic ADC from them both!

Now that you're more aware, and especially if you ask Allie to keep making her presence known, you might start seeing her date (or other signs) really often, lending you much needed solace in knowing she's heard you and is always there.

What's this bit on hiding information? Where is that mentioned?

[Maylissa]

I have also now added the Vet Abuse Network and another important, related link/site to my Topic thread, "Protecting Your Animal from Bad Vets/Clinics":

[Kacy]

Maylissa, on 26 May 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

What's this bit on hiding information? Where is that mentioned?

On the 1st page of the 1st link you posted - something like "Is the vet trying to ??? google?". It basically talked about how they can create websites, or have them created, that would appear before other websites when a search is done on their name. So, basically make the bad reviews harder to find. Don't know if this is possible with medications but, like I said, it's very difficult to find any information against using one of the heart medications.

As for the idea of the ACing - very possible. Hadn't thought of that. Out of 365 days, that person's cat died on the same day as Allie - only 9 years earlier but updated now.

Mary

[Maylissa]

Hmmm, interesting, but also even MORE deceptive a practice! Thanks for pointing that out! What's the specific med you're trying to search on? (maybe I already have something on it...)

No, most people don't automatically think of forms of ADCs (after death communications) until they research them, or have one, then look more into it. Pretty sure there were a few older threads here talking about them, that you could do a word search on up top, right corner. Try typing in "after death communications, ADCs".

[MartyT]

Yes, Maylissa, we've discussed ADCs here many times. See, for example, these threads:

And these blog posts:

After-Death Communication

After-Death Communication, Continued

After-Death Communication: A List of Resources

[Maylissa]

Indeed, Marty! There were also other links you had posted in the midst of another (likely older) ADC discussion, which does also come up on a search as I'd described. There is of course also MUCH that can be found online on ADCs just by Googling.

[Kacy]

Hmmm, interesting, but also even MORE deceptive a practice! Thanks for pointing that out! What's the specific med you're trying to search on? (maybe I already have something on it...)

The medication is pimobendan (Vetmedin). All I can find are glowing reviews. Ended up agreeing to put Molly on it last year when we almost lost her - out of desperation. I have to say she is doing well, but it still scares me.

[Maylissa]

And yet when I just googled "truth behind Vetmedin," several sites came up:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/220258-side-effects-of-pimobendan/

Apparently, you can look it up below (this source cited in a few places), and dogs are supposed to be mentioned somewhere:

http://www.drugs.com/

Also try googling phrases of worst-case scenarios, or other such words, e.g. "dog deaths from Vetmedin." Or maybe "holistic vets on Vetmedin" and such. That's often how I find more info.