Feeling Shut Out

[Maylissa]

This might sound kind of nit-picky, but as always, I feel how I feel, regardless, and so need to vent.

I can't for the life of me figure out what this 'lesson' is supposed to be about, but it seems to be repeating itself over and over again, so there must be something to it that I need to 'fix' in myself. Maybe someone can help me figure it out?

As if all the family and friend rejections over the past 2 years wasn't enough, I now am seeing the same kind of thing 'out there', never letting up on me. Here's the situation:

We'd had a neighbour a few doors down from us, who'd moved away about a year ago. This woman and I had several good, earthy chats and I found I really liked her, despite her having told me that she wasn't a very sociable person as a rule. Of note, when I lost my Mom and brother and the family turned against me, she offered me some words of wisdom, plus a healthy attitude towards such treatment, as she herself had suffered the same kind of thing when both her parents died, and also later on when her only close sister died, too. So I was very sad to see her leave the neighbourhood to move into the city. We also had much in common regarding animals and we'd both always ask about our respective furkids when we'd be chatting. As well, I'd met her daughter and really hit it off with her, too, as another fellow animal-lover. Her daughter also had offered some help regarding my friend here who runs a no-kill animal shelter out of her home, when she needed some legal advice ( the daughter was articling to become a lawyer at the time ). So while we never 'did lunch' or anything, I felt a good connection to both of them, and I really appreciated this brief 'friendship' as I don't often find anyone in our town to be on the same wavelength as me. My husband plowed this woman's driveway after a bad snowstorm the last winter she was here, and she brought over some Christmas goodies in thanks. Unfortunately, when she was moving, I'd missed seeing her just before she left, so I'd actually been missing her being around for the whole year, as I never got the opportunity to get her new location.

This wknd. I finally got around to reading our local paper, and shock of all shocks, I found her OBIT. in there! I have no idea what she died of, or whether it was sudden or not. There was a number listed for further info. if one wished to attend her Celebration of Life ceremony at her son's house this Sunday. So first I wrote a tribute for her surviving daughter, son and furbaby, through the funeral home's website, then called the listed number to get an address for her ceremony today. It turned out to be her daughter's cellphone, so I left a message for her to call me back with the info., saying I'd like to attend if possible. I never heard anything back, and haven't wanted to 'bother' her daughter further by calling again and making a 'pest' of myself when she's probably got so much on her mind already. However, now I won't get to attend her mother's ceremony this afternoon, to pay my respects and to offer some support to her daughter and her mom's doggie, both of whom I knew.

I'm left wondering just what the heck is going on!? First, no one was interested in the least bit in helping ME through MY grief ( locally, or through blood relations )....now, when I'm more ready myself to offer empathy to someone else who also lost their mom, and a woman I personally knew...I'm STILL rejected! I just don't get it. Although I haven't any experience in memorial services ( as my Mom got zero and I couldn't attend my own brother's funeral ), it still strikes me as very odd that someone wouldn't want someone to attend such a service, especially since she ( the daughter ) knew me, too! All I know is I feel rejected by too many people, in too many aspects of life, at too many trying times, whether on the receiving or giving end. I thought that by giving back some of the same kind of help I've received here and on other boards, or through my psychologist, that this would be a GOOD thing....but it seems no one out there, locally, wants anything to do with me, OR any help I might give. I was trying to think of this as an opportunity....to grow, to reach out, to get out of my own ego....but the Universe has slammed the door shut in my face, once again. WHAT AM I DOING SO WRONG that nothing works out???!!!!! As if I wasn't puzzled enough about Life and what I'm even doing in this realm of existence....

[shell]

Maylissa,

This is getting really uncanny! We seem to have yet another experience in common! A semi friend (someone I knew through other friends) got breast cancer a couple of months ago. I used to run into her at the grocery store every week and we would talk and seemed to be getting to be better friends. When I found out about her cancer (her husband is also very sick with liver problems) I called and we talked and I have called her several times since. She always said to come and see her and seemed glad to hear from me. Well, the last three times I have called, I have gotten her husband who says she's sleeping. I know she's having new problems with her treatment side effects and probably IS sleeping, but she usually called me back when she felt better. She has not called back and I don't want to keep calling if she doesn't want to talk to me. But, like you, I'm wondering why she doesn't want to talk to me all of a sudden....what did I do?

Also, I contacted the brother of a man I loved very much who died about 25 years ago (long story, I have writen about it some on this board) and he was glad to hear from me and still comes through where I live on occasion and said "our paths may be crossing sooner than you think". This was shortly before Christmas and I thought he might mean at Christmas because they drive through here on the way to South Carolina to visit his wifes parents (his are both gone). Well, Christmas came and went and nothing. About a month ago I left a message on his work phone about some pictures I had of his dad that I wondered if he wanted. No answer. I finally emailed him with the email address listed on the college directory. No answer. Now, I could maybe think the email didn't make it or something. I also called his home several times and always got the answering machine and as I HATE leaving messages on those darn things, I didn't, just kept hoping someone would answer the darned phone someday! I, like you, feel totally rejected without the slightest idea of why!

I'm torn between continuing to try to reach both of these people just to see if my feelings of rejection are real or if something else happened that makes all of it make sense. Maybe they aren't rejecting us, maybe they never got the messages or have been gone or God knows what, but I don't want to feel like a complete fool either. I'm already in enough emotional turmoil.

Weird how our lives mirror each other, isn't it? By the way, how is Lissa doing? Give her a kiss for me!

Hugs,

Shell

Sorry, hit the wrong key...how is Nissa doing?

[Paul S]

Hey, you two.

AA has beaten into me the shocking idea that I am not the center of the universe, and sometimes people just don't need me. Yet. Maybe in their own time. We all want to help, in whatever way we can, and can get perplexed when that help is not taken. Maybe these people are going through their own special wierdness regarding grief (or, in the case of the lady w/cancer, anticipatory grief). The dude who travels with his wife to South Carolina may have second thoughts cuz maybe he percieved that he was sending you signals that maybe were inappropriate. Maybe there were issues re: you were his bro's girlfriend from 25 years ago, and thats maybe connected with his grief about his brother? I dunno. I usually wind up thinking/assuming that its never as bad as I thought is was, regardless of what the voices in my head may be saying. Also just maybe I've done stuff that other people are scratching their heads over, just like you two are. (I'm not being critical or judgmental. In my experience I just have to 'let it go' so to speak. It's like "Hey, I offered to help at some ceremony, or I've got these pictures...if they don't want 'em or me around, whatever... Turn the page." Or else I'll just go nuts, obsessed with rejection.

I'm not being facetious, either. This is from the guy who posted somewhere that I never fit in anywhere, that no matter what the situation, I feel that I'm the outsider. Or, that my 'friendships' never seem to transcend the venue they develop in. I.E. freinds from work or school or church or AA or wherever, never (or rarely) associate with me outside that place.

The universe has gotten along just fine without me for 12,000,000,000 years, if a few people don't need me despite my wonderful personality and cute exterior, phooey.

Maybe there's nothin' that needs fixin' except how we react to the world (another AA thingy). We're basically fine, except we need people to like us, and we offer ourselves in the best way we know how and for some people, it isn't the time, or they don't see it, or there's somethin' goin' on in 'em that we don't know about that causes them to act this way. Since this seems to be a common reaction, maybe we think we have a bigger impact on others that we actually do. This goes back to the not-being-the-center-of-the-universe thang and the change-how-we-react-to-the-world thang.

Hey, if you did the best you could to alleviate the situation, and it was rebuffed, what more can you do? Even if it was just an offer to help...

I dunno, must ponder further.

P.S.(Hope you both got the PM I sent earlier today.)

[Maylissa]

Shell and Paul,

Oh, so much to reply to and so little time right now! Shell, in the case of your friend with cancer, it could even just be that she's not gotten back to feeling well enough again yet this time 'round. Goodness knows I don't know what I'd be going through if I had a serious condition like that. As for the other one, I think what Paul suggested may have some merit, although I know what we all want is simpler answers, or at least some answers and from the people involved in our puzzlement!

As usual, Paul, you make some very good points and ones which I've added into the equation for further ponderings. But thinking about it further, or obsessing, call it what you will, what I'm still left with is how this all ties into those 2 bigger questions that I posed somewhere else here:

• Why am I here anyway ( and especially since I don't seem to have any real impact on anyone's life?)
• What is the point of living, given the above?

I also have to admit to doing another thing we're not 'supposed' to do, and that is worrying about what others think about me. In this case, since I know this woman had other friends from our town, and so many people know each other in this town, I worry about what they might be thinking of me not being at her service when they probably WERE there. It's not like I talk to most of them enough that they'll likely ever find out my call just wasn't returned, but I'm imagining them whispering amongst themselves that "You'd think so-and-so would have also come today...." The whole thing reminds me, painfully, of another episode here where another neighbour died suddenly, someone I didn't know well at all but who I'd shared a Tai Chi class with and who lived close by as well. I only found out last year that she'd even died, which was about 2 years after the fact. I'd thought the family had simply moved, but meanwhile, 2 other women from homes on either side of me, who I also had known for over 10 years here, had been instrumental in putting on a service for her, held at one of THEIR homes yet, AND I'D NEVER EVEN BEEN INVITED, MUCH LESS EVEN TOLD! When one of them finally mentioned it to me in passing, and found out I didn't even know, I felt so humiliated, as I can't figure out how in the world I'd been 'forgotten', seeing as we all knew each other! The woman who told me also knew this more recently-departed woman from down the street, so now I'm left wondering if she attended while, again, I was absent, but not of my own choosing. ( she's our next door neighbour, so it's not like I can really hide out from her, either ) I mean, what kind of a LOSER do you have to be to not be wanted at someone's funeral service?! And in fact, that reminds me of yet another incident - a newer neighbour across the street from us, whom we'd met at their next-door neighbour's get-together, had lost her new husband right after she'd given birth ( heart attack ) and AGAIN, no one even told us and we found out a year later, in passing!

So that's part of it, too. Rather than thinking of myself as so important ( cuz that's just so obviously NOT true ), I think I've more often just been trying to get one tiny foot in the door, just to be included whatsoever! Talk about feeling insignificant and useless to Life! You know, this is all still shocking to me since when I was young, I was actually quite a popular girl, but unfortunately back then, I wasn't able to really enjoy it cuz I was so darn shy! Now that I've beaten that personal demon, I don't even get to enjoy the fruits of those hard labors by being sociable. There's something definitely not right about this!

But even more than this....what I didn't get, for myself, again, for the 3rd time running.....was a chance to say 'goodbye' to this woman. How is it in any way normal to have been denied this so-called 'closure' 3 times in a row? I was denied this with my Mother, circumstances denied it to me again with my brother, and now this. I just don't even know what the point of caring about or for anyone is, if this is how it's going to keep ending up for me.

It just keeps looking like it's a truism that's right: Life's a b**** and then you die.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Maylissa

[Paul S]

***sigh***

OK, Paulski is rolling up his sleeves.

Maylissa said:

"Why am I here anyway ( and especially since I don't seem to have any real impact on anyone's life?)"

That's what you think. OK, besides us 'round these here boards, you can prob mention your hubby (stop laughing) and countless others you may have touched that you're just unaware of. We all touch peoples lives in ways we cannot imagine. If I have a gloomy day all it sometimes may take is a wink and a smile from someone I have no clue who she is. A casual assistance at a store, or something we said to a neighbor may impact them in ways we may never know. Forget about all the big ways to help, for a lot of us, its the little things. Think of all the litle furballs you've had, got now, and will have. If I was a little furdude, I'd wanna be yours.

Then Maylissa said:

"What is the point of living, given the above?"

Oy, vey. Reread Paulski's first babble above. ***pause while you reread*** ***Yumpin' yiminy, you're slow*** OK: while one is living, one could be hoping. You said somewhere that you're 48, heck you could be around for another 30-40 years (less if you continue to smoke )As I reflect on the past, and I'm at about that point where there's just as much past as future, I notice that there've been turning points when things radically get suddenly better. (The reverse has also happened, but we won't go there.) So if I don't like how things are now, if life seems pointless, I just wait it out. For me, it helps to have a religious faith that thrives on hope, and that keeps me going.

And then Maylissa said some more!:

I also have to admit to doing another thing we're not 'supposed' to do, and that is worrying about what others think about me.

Okey-dokey, since you put 'supposed' in quotes I suppose you've also heard why. People think about you what they think about you, and quite often there ain't much we can do about it, despite attempts at reprogramming others perceptions thru our own behavior. As my Mom used to say, "If its not one thing, its another." OK, she always meant that when the car developed trouble, the washer was making wierd noises, one of my brothers did something strange and one or more of her houseplants was developing spots, but its applicable here, too. Paulski hands over to paulcoholic, his other personality, who sez: "It's not always about me." Think about how often YOU are thinking about other people. Pick a person you know, anybody (tho not in your immediate circle, so the hubby, your father, evil bro and dead Mom are out). How often do you go around thinking about them, and why they do what they do? Not as often as you think, considering all the people you know (I ain't talking friends, just people in general that you know their names, or even don't know the names, people you routinely see at the market or Post Office, etc.) This takes effort, and it took me a few years and a whole passel of AA meetin's and readins' and ponderins' to get it thru my naturally thick skull. (Not Neanderthal thick, but close enuff). And I STILL worry about what others think, tho not as much. Sometimes I frankly just don't care. To paraphrase a country tune: "My give-a-dang's busted".

And then Maylissa continued!!:

In this case, since I know this woman had other friends from our town, and so many people know each other in this town, I worry about what they might be thinking of me not being at her service when they probably WERE there. It's not like I talk to most of them enough that they'll likely ever find out my call just wasn't returned, but I'm imagining them whispering amongst themselves that "You'd think so-and-so would have also come today...."

How do you know they knew you wanted to go? How do you know they were there? maybe some of them didn't get invited, either. I dunno, maybe, if they thought about your not being there at all, maybe gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought you had a valid reason.

You can't control what other people think or do, you can only control what you think or do. You cut your losses and only worry about that which you can deal with, and that is what's going on inside you. This is where the "Serenity Prayer" comes in handy. (I bet, since you know I'm in AA, you were wondering when I was gonna bring that up!)

"God, Grant me the Serenity

to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things that I can,

and the Wisdom to know the difference."

Read and reread and rereread again the prayer. Meditate on each of the three petitions and how you can apply it to what ails you.

See you l8tr

PS: Forgot another bonmot, not AA, but could be:

"Worrying is like a rocking chair,

it gives you something to do,

but it doesn't really get you anywhere."

[Maylissa]

Paulski,

Did I give you a really good 'work-out'? And shall I consider your considered consideration a loving, but ever-humorous smack upside the head?

Now...on to the continued continuation in all its continuance ... just...cuz...I'm....so....slow....

First, for the easier part: "If I was a little furdude, I'd wanna be yours."....all I can say is, "Aaaaawwwwww".....now there's not only a compliment, but the only solid and readily-apparent reason I can plainly see for real meaning of my existence.

But since it's me, after all, what else can I say?! Despite having some brains ( though too often scrambled, and not even with toast ) it's still hard for me to really feel worthwhile, after having parents who never loved me for being me, but for what I could do for them - yes, even Mom was guilty of this too often. It's just a tough thing for me to feel inside with enough conviction, w/o at least some outside assurance to go along with it. So thanks for the reminder of one of my greatest feats - of being the best, darn 'Mom' I could be. I swore I'd treat my kidlets as opposite as I could manage to how I was treated, and I think I've at least done that....'course, that's much easier to do when they're such giving bundlies with great big, fuzzy hearts!

I guess part of it is that I really always felt that I was destined for much greater things ( ie. full of potential ), yet now don't feel like I've achieved anywhere near the bar I set for myself way back when, seemingly in another lifetime. So each rejection also seems like a confirmation of my failures. But even when I can convince myself that it's not my problem, that still doesn't explain the way others forget I/we even exist ( yet others do ), or the relationship we have to each other, no matter how much time I've spent with them, year after year. As the hubby always says to me, "We just have to get used to the idea that we're not even ON their radar screens....and I don't know why, either." I also compare this to how my Mom was included in many things, though she didn't seem to do much more for people than I do for others, and in fact, I've often gone way beyond that, but to no avail. This also makes me rail against that spiritual concept that all good deeds done out of the goodness of your heart end up coming back to you, in one form or another. Yet, in my life, that doesn't seem to be the case. And I'm always careful to not do something for anyone just to get something back; if my heart's not 'in it', I don't do it, as that's no gift to anybody.

I've also tried the waiting it out thing, knowing that life goes up and down, but that's what scares me...the more life I have behind me on which to reflect, the more shocked I've been to discover that the bad stuff has outweighed the good stuff, and mainly in the last 2 decades. I don't think it's just my perception being skewed, as my H. also sees the same thing in both his and our life. So I'm having a dickens of a time, especially this last week, even finding that "hope", and that's not even like me, as I'd always been ever-hopeful, even through the worst of times.

Further to your discourse:

"How often do you go around thinking about them, and why they do what they do? " ( hey, you can't blame me for saying more if it's just in response to what you said - we need a "poke in the ribs" smilie, something like this...->{} )

K, I had to laugh, cuz I actually DO go around trying to analyze other people's behaviours! I figure, if I can 'peg' them and their personal ways, I'll be able to ignore the hurtful things they do better and not take them so personally. So, in answer to your question - LOTS!

I also hadn't yet mentioned ( or had I? ) the other rejection that came recently, that being STILL not getting the pictures of my Mom from that cousin of mine...who I'd just spent 3 hours with on the phone a couple of wks ago.....oh, I can just hear the comments on that one already.....just shaddup! ( no don't....I actually can't wait to hear your jab ) The point being...time invested, what I thought had been a productive, welcome and long-overdue chat, a firmer "promise!" from my cousin to come through for me in her plan.....yet NOTHIN' in the end. I'd even told her forthrightly that I just couldn't keep living on idle promises from people after what I'd been through since Mom died....deaf ears...no commitment...sigh...I guess not even shame gets the ball rolling when it comes to me and my needs.

As for those neighbours, I know I can hold my head up high just having wanted to attend and help the daughter and pooch out, but I was still denied the chance to say goodbye, or to even find out what happened to my neighbour ( she was only 60 ). Sure, I can say goodbye from within, but it's really not quite the same, and I just HATE this recurring pattern of being denied the opportunity. It's not fair and it's not right of others. But all I can do now is wait and see if we get a "Thank-You" card for the condolences I sent through the funeral home...but I'm not holding my breath as I've lost so much faith in people to do the right things by others.

I don't know, Paulski, I just feel like I wasn't that bad a person, even during my younger years when I was ( I still say, rightfully ) rebelling against my family's ways and unfairness in the world, that I should have built up so much bad karma for it to all come crashing down on my head in the last while. Compared to many, especially other teenagers in my time, I was pretty good, considering the garbage that was always going on at home. And I know that these smaller incidents aren't the end of the world, by themselves, but it's all feeling so cumulative and that's why it hurts so much.

As for not worrying.....have you not yet read what me and Shell were yakking about under another thread the other day? NO, NO, NO....I CAN'T not worry, as bad things happen then!! And if I DO worry, then that spurs me on to do some of the things I think I need to do, so there IS an 'upside'! But yes, the Serenity Prayer has actually helped me in the moment before...so I'll at least give that another go. And yes, you've showed GREAT restraint from mentioning it until now...even though I knew you'd been thinking of it, probably many times before this.

BTW, I meant to tell you that I made an internal discovery yesterday...while snorting and guffawing at/with your nightmare story ( yes, I'll get to that reply, too, soon )....you very much remind me of a friend I'd had for over 30 years, who's an absolute scream with her humour, too, but who I've seemed to have lost, particularly after my losses ( another promiser who never makes good on her promises )....so it feels like I've gotten back what I've been sorely missing....that infectious, wry, sarcastic, silly, etc. humour that makes me feel alive and young and that saved me from insanity when I was a teenager and young adult. So thank-you for being YOU and for helping to save what's now left of my sanity.( snork! ) The difference between the two of you, though, is that you can also talk about the serious and painful parts of life, which is a huge bonus, unlike her. She just runs from those...strangely, she's also a recovering alcoholic ( as far as I know ), and I've tried to factor that into what she does ( or doesn't do that she ought to ), but it still manages to hurt me. Anyhoodle, just wanted you to know that and what you do for me, as you know what they say.....tell those you care about NOW, not after they're gone.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Maylissa

[shell]

Maylissa and Paul,

I almost hate to break into this "conversation" between the two of you! I'll be quick and to the point, as I can't wait to read the next installment.

The woman with cancer is not a huge issue. I understand what she must be going through (although she has stayed cheery and positive so far, but I'm afraid that's going to come crashing down on her eventually.) I also think her husband hasn't told her I called....he's somewhat out of it.

The other person is another story. I won't go into long details about our relationship, but the main point is that having contact with him after so long was like a lifeline for me. Just thinking I might see him at Christmas actually got me through Christmas without falling apart completely. And he is such a sweet person that I can't imagine him just "dropping" me. Also, I have something kind of important to tell him, that I didn't the first time, but would like him to know. It's all very complicated. Anyway, it just feels like almost another death, like I've lost him too. This probably makes no sense without the whole story, but anyway, I just feel so hurt and lost about the whole thing.

Paul, as usual you have given me my laugh for the day! "My give a dangs broken". What a great quote! I laughed for five minutes. That's just the way I've been feeling lately. And yes, the serenty prayer is something I try to remember.

That's all from me....let the story continue!

Hugs to ya both,

Shell

[Paul S]

Shell and Maylissa:

You're both tiring me out.

shell said:

Maylissa and Paul,

"I almost hate to break into this "conversation" between the two of you! I'll be quick and to the point, as I can't wait to read the next installment.

Oh, break in, please!!! Save me!!!

and said some more:

"The other person is another story. I won't go into long details about our relationship, but the main point is that having contact with him after so long was like a lifeline for me. Just thinking I might see him at Christmas actually got me through Christmas without falling apart completely. And he is such a sweet person that I can't imagine him just "dropping" me. Also, I have something kind of important to tell him, that I didn't the first time, but would like him to know. It's all very complicated. Anyway, it just feels like almost another death, like I've lost him too. This probably makes no sense without the whole story, but anyway, I just feel so hurt and lost about the whole thing."

My apologies, I was unaware as to the nature and extent of the friendship. I thought it was more casual. Something probably came up and you'll know when its time. Maybe he's just unawares.

One more shellspeak:

"My give a dangs busted".

I think that was a quote from a JoDee Messina song. I dunno, having been only obsessed with that country and western music for the past 2 years.

And now the other one:

"And shall I consider your considered consideration a loving, but ever-humorous smack upside the head?"

Yuppers!!!

M sed:

"It's just a tough thing for me to feel inside with enough conviction, w/o at least some outside assurance to go along with it.

"Patience is a virtue" "Time takes time". "This too, shall pass."

Maybe you need to seek out CODA (Co-dependents Anonymous)? I don't know if its applicable. I went to an AA meeting a few years ago. Codependency was the topic. I wasn't sure what that was, basically. I had an idea, but came away with the notion that one's self esteem is determined by other people. If you like me, then I am a good person, if you don't like me, then I'm a bad person. Other people's opinions of me determine how I feel about me. Other people owe me my happines. Dang. What I thought was just a character defect that was being handled rather well by AA turned out to have a 12-Step Program all its own! Later on I discovered that it had also more to do with people who seek to control and manipulate other people because of the others' behavior (ususally an addictive one). I dunno. Someone with the name Melody Beattie wrote all the basic texts. I don't have any, cuz I'll just stick with AA and Catholic spirituality. Both, esp the Catholicity, amply take care of this stuff for me.

And I quoteth Maylissa further:

"I guess part of it is that I really always felt that I was destined for much greater things ( ie. full of potential ), yet now don't feel like I've achieved anywhere near the bar I set for myself way back when, seemingly in another lifetime. So each rejection also seems like a confirmation of my failures."

Oh, like I cannot relate to THAT at all. I get a deeper understanding of why you feel the way you do. And why we're both passengers on the DisOrient Express.

And again:

"As the hubby always says to me, "We just have to get used to the idea that we're not even ON their radar screens....and I don't know why, either."

He's a wise man, that hubby. At least since he feels as you do, there's something?

M:

"I also compare this to how my Mom was included in many things, though she didn't seem to do much more for people than I do for others, and in fact, I've often gone way beyond that, but to no avail."

You ain't yo momma, and her friends/acquaintances are different from yours.

Another AA thingy: "Identify, don't compare."

M:

"have you not yet read what me and Shell were yakking about under another thread the other day?"

Uh, no.

M:

"another promiser who never makes good on her promises"

As long as you don't pick up the habit. Forgive. It reales you from the bondage of other people's idiotic/hurtful actions. I know it ain't easy, it took me a loooooong while before I can grasp the idea of forgiveness, even when it hurts. One has to work towards forgiveness, it can't always "just be done."

[Maylissa]

Shellski ( hey, we might as well make this a trend ),

As you said...

"...as I can't wait to read the next installment." Isn't it a grand thing, though? Who'd a-thunk it, that giving and getting help for our grief could also be kinda fun, too?! This is SO much like just sittin' around the kitchen table with good friends and hashing our problems out, in a relaxed and informal manner.....sigh....yup, every day I wish more and more that we all lived in the same place.

Even though my similar feelings are spread out between a few different people, I can certainly relate to your dilemma here:

"Just thinking I might see him at Christmas actually got me through Christmas without falling apart completely. And he is such a sweet person that I can't imagine him just "dropping" me. Also, I have something kind of important to tell him, that I didn't the first time, but would like him to know. Anyway, it just feels like almost another death, like I've lost him too. This probably makes no sense without the whole story, but anyway...I just feel so hurt and lost about the whole thing."

My cousin had told me, way back when, that she planned on coming out to visit me awhile after my Mom and bro. passed...but never did. I'd hung on that hope, too, of getting a bit of relief from the pain, by having someone who I thought would understand and who was a part of my history, around for awhile. A friend told me the same thing, and although she ended up coming through much later than suggested, and with her family, they only stayed one night, she never talked about my ordeal/losses and we actually ended up dropping each other as friends ( because of some other behaviour of hers that me and my H couldn't accept as being indicative of real friendship - plus, I came to not be able to trust her ). And then there's the long-time friend I spoke of to that guyski here. She just keeps saying she'll email me, but never does bother ( plus much more, but I won't go into it this time ). They ALL have felt like mini-deaths, some more so than others...and these were the people I thought could and would help me get me through this. So, even w/o the details, I understand the feelings you've got because of this distancing by someone you really connect with. Neither could I imagine any of these people "dropping" me...but they seem to have done a right, good job of it! ( and if you DID want to tell us the gory details, you, too, could make your posts as long-winded as mine and Paulski's! )

You have a right to those feelings, even if having them doesn't solve the problem. But I get your confusion as to what to do NOW? How many times can you be a 'pest' w/o really being a pest? How many times should you dip your foot in the tepid water, or should you just plunge right in, even if there might me hoogly things awaiting you in there? If you pray about it, but don't seem to get any answer, one way or another, THEN what? I hear ya, sistah.

[Maylissa]

OMG.....I hit something wrong and just lost my entire post back to the Great Paulski! AAAAaaaagghhh......I was almost finished, too! Well, it's just gonna have to wait now... remember your nightmare ending?.......#%!!****!##@%!

[FUNNYFACE]

YOU ARE ALL A GREAT READ............

FUNNYFACE........

[shell]

Mayliski,

It IS like old friends sitting around the kitchen table! Sigh, sigh, sigh....Well, maybe that can be a new "hope" for us....somehow all getting together someday somehow!!!!!

I, too, have parted ways with several people over their lack of support for me through this whole thing. And I didn't have THAT many friends to begin with. I'm glad you understood how I felt about my exs brother. I just don't know what to think or do or feel. For now, I'm just letting it slide until I get a feeling of what I should do. Too many loses. I'm so tired of it.

Hang tight,

Hugskis,

Shell

Funnyface,

Thanks for jumping in!

Shell

[Paul S]

Hello ladies...

shell said:

"I, too, have parted ways with several people over their lack of support for me through this whole thing. And I didn't have THAT many friends to begin with. I'm glad you understood how I felt about my exs brother. I just don't know what to think or do or feel. For now, I'm just letting it slide until I get a feeling of what I should do. Too many loses. I'm so tired of it."

One of the things I read in one of my grief books is that all this grieving does tend to edit ones' address book. I think it was in "Companion Through The Darkness : Inner Dialogues on Grief" by Stephanie Ericsson.

Maylissa provided some comic relief with:

"OMG.....I hit something wrong and just lost my entire post back to the Great Paulski! AAAAaaaagghhh......I was almost finished, too! Well, it's just gonna have to wait now... remember your nightmare ending?.......#%!!****!##@%!"

I do this a lot too, until I discovered "copy and paste", which I do whenver I get "long-winded" Sometimes I pontificate in MS Word, and repeatedly save, then do that "copy and paste" thing.

Then at some point she didn't mess anything up with:

"How many times can you be a 'pest' w/o really being a pest? How many times should you dip your foot in the tepid water, or should you just plunge right in, even if there might me hoogly things awaiting you in there?"

Oy, that's a toughie. Sometimes I feel that bby merely wondering about it, is the answer that, yep, I'm being a pest. Then I wonder if its just a self-esteem issue and should press on. I dunno.

Followed by:

"If you pray about it, but don't seem to get any answer, one way or another, THEN what?"

Pray some more. God answers all prayers, although in HIS own time.

[Maylissa]

Okay, let's try this again, but maybe more concisely than my first, lost attempt.

Paulski came up with:

"Patience is a virtue" "Time takes time". "This too, shall pass." I guess after 15 long years of trying to really connect with certain people, and not having any long-term success with it, I've run out of patience! I would've been happy with just one good friend to bounce things in life off of, but it's never happened in my adult life...hence trying to establish some kind of network for myself out there, even if it's not terribly extensive. So running into so much rejection, from every corner, has just pooped me right out, disgusted me and brought up bigger fears of ending up alone. What I really meant to get across was that, despite having worked so hard at trying to get beyond what my parents modeled, has still netted me nothing much and that's what makes it so hard for me to believe in my worth. I mean, logically, if I'm so 'good enough', where IS everybody?! How come there are so many 'wrong' types around me and not some of higher calibre? As for time, and the passing of events and conditions, again, isn't 15 years enough time to wait? Well, I think so, anyway.

Then he had a very bright idea! "Maybe you need to seek out CODA (Co-dependents Anonymous)? " K, I had to laugh , cuz I was IN CODA for about 3-4 yrs. here! Long story short, it folded because too many of the members were so messed-up that they wouldn't follow the basic rules of the group! I did like it better and found it more useful than Al-Anon ( although my fave was still AA - the people there seemed much more 'with it' and were friendlier, too! ) and it helped me quite a bit...but obviously they couldn't fix everything! I think I still have Melody Beattie's book ( plus others for codependants ). After having learned about their program, I actually think almost everybody could be classified to some extent as codependant...at least most people I've met.

Yes, hubby can be a pretty good teacher, even when his 'student' can be rather snail-like, but on the other hand, he's too defeatist for my liking, so it ends up being up to moi to try to figure things out &/or make changes or try things to get one or both of us out of these sink-holes. At least he usually goes along with my ideas in the end, but it's no paradise getting there sometimes! With some of these rejections, especially those from within the family, it would have really been nice to have had him getting more involved and maybe taking a stand FOR me, instead of leaving me to fight these battles and deal with these lunatics all by myself. That, BTW, also doesn't help with any self-esteem issues I still carry....when your partner stands on the sidelines, never jumping into the fray when it might be needed, in order to preserve your good name or anything similar to that, one tends to see the lesson as meaning "you're just not good enough, at least in this person's eyes, to bother..." I know AND feel I deserve more than this, more than the rejection...and yet none of my 'teachers' around me seem to agree! Go figure...

As for forgiveness....I've done that more times than I care to count, for each 'infraction' many of these folks have committed, and now I'm just getting angry because my heart opens up to them again, just to have it stomped on again. ( my heart is just too tender for my own good! ) I think too often, even when we can forgive the person ( not their behaviour ), it still means we have to get them out of our lives forevermore, in order to not be foolish and put ourselves at risk again. It's often not a solution we want to accept, either, especially with close ties, or with those who have other redeeming characteristics that are at odds with their flaws...but sometimes those flaws are too great to ignore, as they don't serve us well when we're trying to grow and the others aren't. I dunno...it doesn't seem like a really great solution much of the time, even if it's a common one. My dream is to be able to really 'see' the holiness in everyone ( although I can't even imagine this with really heinous types, frankly ), so that I don't even notice all their flaws anymore! Seems like a pipe dream though...and back to being impatient, but with myself this time! I can't evolve FAST enough, dagnabit! And so much, I see, for my more "concise" second attempt! ( I think I also lost more of my funny-bone this go 'round -- ah well, there's always another post to redeem myself with! )

____________________________________________________________________

And Funnyface(ski), I'm glad you're finding all this chatter uplifting! I know it helps me to feel more 'normal' ( as humour IS a big part of who I am usually ), but I also know that often those in more intense, earlier pain can't yet abide people joking around ( been there, done that, too!...earlier on ), so it's nice to find we're all helping at least some others who can handle this style of healing. I DID find that when someone, anyone actually made a comical remark on a board, it was a great relief to me from all the surrounding pain, so in many ways, at this point, I think it's helping me cope even more than I'd considered possible. And I know in the past, whenever I could actually joke about the hideous things that happened in my family, it helped me grow beyond the event that much faster. Hey, I can't help it ( and don't want to ), it's something I really love about myself, and admire in others, as long as it's not just a continual cover-up/defense mechanism that drives others away instead of bringing them closer.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Maylissa

[Pandorasbox]

I've been through a lot of the same things, with my own life, and feelings of self-worth, etc.

I'm not sure what to make of it, although there are many times when I chalk up an experience to legitimate reasoning, on the other person's part, or, that maybe I've just not left a big enough mark, or impression. So I always end up being one of the "invisible people". You know, the ones that are around, but aren't really "there", or don't seem like they are. Do you know what I mean?

Some of that is my own doing. I think everyone here knows that feeling of needing seclusion, and some need more than others. Then there are others who start out like that, temporarily, and then just continue down the path. That's kind of where I fit in, I think.

I've always enjoyed time alone, but it wasn't until this boatload of bad stuff was dropped in my lap, that I started to feel as if I just want/ed to stay home all the time. I do have an Anxiety Disorder, and all of this has just aggrivated that to nearly (and sometimes truly) unbearable levels. The highest level of anxiety disorder is agoraphobia, and I'd have to say that I am kind of close to that. Not necessarily in that I'm actually scared of leaving the house (though sometimes I am), I just can't get past pacing, and fretting, and getting nowhere. Another worry-wort here.

Then there's the old cliche', "Don't try too hard. Just live life, and let the good things come to you". Now that doesn't mean for you to not do anything, but, and I do not mean this to be insulting in any way, shape, or form, but maybe because you do obsess so much over what other's think, who is really your friend, and who isn't, etc, it carries over into your personality, and it's not something that some people want to be around. I know that I've been that way, and I know that there have been people who have distanced themselves from me, because I worry, over-analyze, fret, etc.

Sometimes people steer clear because they don't know what to say. That is, if they know your situation. It's something that they aren't comfortable with, either, and they may not say anything, because they don't know what to say. My family went through that after my brother's suicide, and it's something that seemed to carry on, for me, throughout life. It's not so bad, as an adult, but as a kid, and a teen, it was a real conversation, and usually friendship breaker.

So know that I am right there with you, I have felt those feelings, I have been very, very, upset over what I thought was about me, and maybe sometimes it is, but I do know that many times it's not, it's about the other person, and their fear.

[FUNNYFACE]

To All

A dear friend has told me...."Never expect more than a person can truely give or be and than you won't be disappointed."

I try to keep this in my head + say it daily. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't...it still doesn't make the hurt go away.

Bed is calling

Nite Ladies + Gent too !!!!!!!

Elaine

[shell]

Hi All,

I think we all have issues and doubts about our self worth. Well, I think all of us are terrific people! And anyone who doesn't think so can go to.....

I think Pandorasbox is right about trying to over think everything. Sometimes, when I'm lucky, I can just say to heck with it all. I'm just going to live and quit worrying about what others think, what I maybe should be doing, whats going to happen tomorrow, etc. It usually doesn't last long, but for the brief time it does, boy, is it a wonderful feeling! I think we all have to get out of our own heads sometimes!

Funnyface, I try to think that way too, and it does help a little. But, like you said, it doesn't help the hurt go away. I guess I have to try to develope a harder shell (haha no pun intended) but then I would rather be sensitive and emotional than hard and uncaring. Jeez...when did life get so complicated?

Hugs to all,

Shell

[Maylissa]

Pandorasbox,

Yes, I'm familiar with those 'invisible' types of people, although that's definitely not me, , at least not anymore! Funny though...I used to be like that, yet people were still drawn to me...another "not anymore".

My former sister-in-law ( my ex's sister ) had agoraphobia, but she was also alcoholic ( so were both of their parents ), and tragically, died at age 36 of complications from drinking. She was a remarkably bright girl ( used to get straight A's ) but spent the last 15 years or so of her life inside her mother's house, unable to venture out even to the backyard. So I certainly HOPE your disorder doesn't ever get to this point!! I have read that cognitive therapy is one of the best ways of dealing with, and beating, anxiety disorders, so I hope you'll keep this in mind for yourself. Grief is bad enough, without having to deal with something else on top of it.

This was very insightful:

"...but maybe because you do obsess so much over what other's think, who is really your friend, and who isn't, etc, it carries over into your personality, and it's not something that some people want to be around...people who have distanced themselves from me, because I worry, over-analyze, fret, etc."

I'm quite sure that some of that is indeed picked up by others, on a subliminal level, and no, it wouldn't be 'attractive'. But I'm always torn about things like that, because it's a part of the real me, and even if I'm growing, it's there for the moment. I kind of feel like this should be every bit as acceptable as the traits these other people have that are somewhat problematic, or even downright annoying. Everybody has something, and some are really in-your-face traits, yet people don't seem to be running away from them...so I don't get it. I don't think I'm that bad!

Then you said:

"Sometimes people steer clear because they don't know what to say. That is, if they know your situation. It's something that they aren't comfortable with, either, and they may not say anything, because they don't know what to say. My family went through that after my brother's suicide, and it's something that seemed to carry on, for me, throughout life. It's not so bad, as an adult, but as a kid, and a teen, it was a real conversation, and usually friendship breaker."

Well, you're right about THAT! It's another thing I rail against because my whole life has been spent in the shadow of my family's craziness. Most folks haven't really even wanted to believe what my family's really like, so if I wasn't actively avoiding talking about them, I was trying to get people to believe I wasn't making it all up! Since this craziness got even worse after my Mom and bro. died, it really complicated the whole grieving process, because most people didn't have the 'toughness' to even hear about my story, so support was withdrawn even before I could get very far in talking about what happened.

So while I understand people's reluctance to 'go there' when it comes to painful subject matter, what are people like me and others supposed to DO with our feelings then? IT'S NOT FAIR!! If you and your family are deemed 'normal', you get to talk about things, but not otherwise. This has also been such a big conundrum for me, as I recognized many moons ago that I'd turned into a perfectionist ( cuz of my family dynamics ), so have spent many years also trying to mellow out a bit in that regard, and have, I believe, made a good amount of progress this way...though not a 'perfect' amount! And through my life, when others also saw that this was my bent, I got told that I needed to stop being this way so much. Well....now that I'd rather just be me, just express the feelings I have and NOT be perfect in my grief....I'M NOT WANTED for either that, OR the person I'm trying to grow into being! That's just TOO ironic to be believed! I can't tell you the # of times I've ranted to my H. over the last 2 years, "Why do I have to be so damn perfect for these other people?! Why can't I just RELAX and be how I AM?! Why can't they all just ACCEPT me for how I am right now?! That's what so many TOLD me I should do!! Now that's not good enough for them, either!"

So I'd always, through each loss, end up having to give myself permission to grieve and rant, no matter what anyone else thought...but that didn't garner me the support I craved, either.

And now, though I feel like I'm progressed a little bit more, in spite of all these contradictory messages, I'm still left out, in the cold, of the loop, whatever you want to call it. I'm actually rather sick and tired of trying to analyze other people and their behaviours....cuz they MAKE NO SENSE to me anyway! I just wish they'd get their own acts together and start being more self-aware! It's all so stupid....be a happy person...but don't play games - be honest and express your feelings...but don't expect us to understand when you are....aaarrrggghhh!!!

Funnyface,

Yes, I've heard that one, too...but how are you supposed to know, ahead of trying times, how much any one person can give? These are the ways friendships and other relationships are usually tested - through the HARD times, not the good times. I remember one old friend who got divorced about 2 years after I did, and I called her up to offer support and company, when I had refused HER offers of the odd night out with the girls earlier in my own partner loss. She said to me, "That's so strange!.....it's like you're the opposite of a 'fairweather friend'! When things were okay for me, I didn't hear from you, but now that they're not, here you are!" I just told her that it was because I already understood how divorce affects you and that I was offering my support for these hard times. Too bad almost no one's ever done the same for me!

Shell,

Yah, this works well, when you can work it! It's a very freeing feeling, I'll admit, but neither can I manage to keep it up.

Then you had this to add:

"...but then I would rather be sensitive and emotional than hard and uncaring. Jeez...when did life get so complicated? "

Exactly!!! Many people say life ISN'T supposed to be so hard, but more fun, yet others say life is nothing but a series of challenges and opportunities to grow beyond the pains......I don't know WHO to believe anymore....but "complicated" I could sure agree with!!

[STARKISS]

Hi All,

I just want to say that when both my parents died last year, I felt that I had nothing to do when they came in and started taking over the house and deciding what furniture stayed and what was going to be sold. I lived with my parents for forty years and my siblings just came and visited my parents each week. I felt that I could say nothing or do anything that dealt with the house. I could not even pick up my own father's remains because I was not incharge of his estate. How can you go up against family when they want what they want. Take care and sorry if I was just venting Shelley