Rae1991

23 hours ago, kayc said:

Some parents enable their kids so they don't learn to stand on their own and that may have played in some to why he's in this situation.  He's lived in this house since he got out of the service, his mom owned it, she left it to him eight years ago, along with her home and some tobacco fields and money.  He sold her house, the tobacco fields and went through all the money with nothing to show for it, like there's no tomorrow.  He only gets $377/mo. social security so has his XW and roommate to split expenses but not charging them rent.  I bet they don't even know he's about to get foreclosed on.  He could be on disability through the VA but hasn't filed.  What's he waiting for?

I care about him as a person but don't need someone to adopt, I have my hands full taking care of myself and my place.  It's like his head isn't grounded in reality.  Makes me wonder if part of it's the Asperger's.

I hear ya on the social media.  I'm lucky with my FB "friends" they're grown up and mature, I wouldn't cotton to the drama.  I don't think everything needs documented on social media like Edtv.

Wow. That is a mountain of problems. He blew through all the money? Good lord! I could see his Asperger's being part of the problem, but also the way he was raised does factor in too. I went to college with some kids on the spectrum and they needed some accommodations and extra help, but they got through it like any normal student and are working too. Their parents raised them normally, but still gave them the extra support and guidance they needed, but didn't coddle them.

For instance, the guy who works PT that had his expenses paid for and has always been privileged is arrogant, had no idea how to cook so the whole month we dated I cooked or we ate out or his mom would drive 3 hours with a weeks worth of meals she made for him, he played video games 24/7 when not in class, he had (and sounds like still has) terrible work ethic and barely ever went to class. He only ever received positive reinforcement growing up, so any kind of constructive criticism sends him spinning, but he has no problem criticizing others. His parents are clearly enabling his behavior. His head isn't in reality either, but that's his upbringing and his unwillingness to do better.

Another guy I dated again for about 2 months was in a similar situation. He told me that he was living with his sick dad to take care of him. I dumped him because I found out he and his soon to be ex-wife (that he lied about ever having, and was not divorced from) had also been living there the entire duration of their marriage, his dad was not sick and his dad was paying all of the bills, including the ones his wife would run up. Mind you, his dad is a disabled veteran on SSI and Disability, and both he and his ex wife worked FT jobs. He was also brought up relatively spoiled being an only child, had never lived without one of his parents, didn't know how to read or pay even basic bills, and did not know how to survive on his own. He is now 33 and still living with his dad. I keep in contact with his dad only because he is a lovely guy, but is now in ailing health. His parents however, absolutely enable his behavior too.

I do agree that things like mental/physical disorders, addictions and things of that nature can absolutely factor into the way people behave and cause them to not live in reality, but as you said, it's also their upbringing too. 

--Rae 

1 hour ago, kayc said:

Property taxes, not income taxes.  I knew he was bad with $, that's why I told him I'd handle the $ if we were married.  Why would anyone jeopardize their home like that?  He has two roommates, they should all pay 1/3 each month into an account (since they're not paying rent) and not touch that account until it's time to pay property taxes.  If you can't have that much discipline, well there's not much hope for you, is there!

For sure!  Both partners need to be healthy going into a relationship, so you don't end up in a codependent relationship!  

If a person can't handle FB, maybe they should take a break from it.  All walls are not equal, it really depends on your particular selection of friends as to what is showing up.  Tonight/tomorrow they're predicting 10-20" snow at my elevation...this morning I saw a post from some friends in Mexico living it up, gorgeous weather.  I laughed out loud!  We can't take any of it too seriously.

Yeah, there really isn't much hope for these kinds of people that can't even manage their own lives, but still go out searching for a mate/spouse. I (briefly) was hanging out with a guy who was 30 years old back in 2012 right after my fiance and I split up. He expressed interest in possibly dating so we went on a couple dates, only problem was he had 4 roommates and still "couldn't afford" his rent payments. Turns out he had a serious drinking problem and spent his income partying, he's 36 now and from what I understand not much has changed. Another guy I dumped after only a month of dating had his college expenses paid for by his parents, so he left school with no debt. He's 31 now, working part time and his parents still pay his rent. Yuck.

I take social media breaks from time to time and don't post much of anything about my personal life anymore because there needs to be some privacy and separation between real life and social media. It's also not healthy to constantly be on the platforms. I also began removing people who do nothing but air their dirty laundry, argue and complain on Facebook all the time. It gets annoying, its childish and depressing to look at constantly. I also removed a few people who's lives absolutely revolved around their relationships, like, every single day they were posting about the "love of their life," talking about their private relations and tagging their SO in everything, to me that's just too much over exposure and insecurity that I do not want to know about nor do I want to be exposed to it myself. People unfortunately do take it seriously and it has consequences.

--Rae

On 11/28/2018 at 8:50 PM, Vanush said:

Ah yes, I can't wait for that day. It sounds like Tim and you weren't quite right for one another. The cold, cruel and emotionally unavailable person was one that I associate with, that is my ex-girlfriend really. I'm so glad and admiring of the fact that you moved on after such a tough time, it provides a good example for myself to remind myself of, and model upon. The existential void you describe resonates with me as well, it is clearly not a nice headspace to be in. Did you find that as long as you were busy, those feelings didn't catch up with you? 

I, like you, am 5 months or so after saying goodbye to Sarah, and it's definitely not easy. Only just today, I drove past the places we had countless dates and spent countless times together, however, unlike Tim or Joe, I can't say she was emotionally unavailable or horrible or nasty. She was lovely. Just not quite the right person for me, or the version of me currently. The reminders really sting I find, and tend to eat away at the insides. That is not to say that I'm drastically unhappy or doing poorly in my life, I'm still moving forward, but I actively avoid reminders of her, and I dislike going to weddings currently as I am reminded of what could have been. I try to stay away from social media where you are seeing people in happy fulfilling relationships reminding you of what you don't currently have. Difficult isn't it. 

It's not to say that it's the be all or end-all of life, but it adds a nice homely touch to this existence, a fulfilling relationship. It seems like you have been quite strong in moving on and steeling yourself. Do you think you were able to heal without becoming jaded about relationships/love etc? That is the ultimate goal here. But I know it is not quite that easy when I feel like she could have been the one to make me truly happy. The one you want to show off to everyone, to be at their side around people. But strangely, lacking that really close intimate connection and understanding of one another's minds. 

I definitely know how it feels to have that sting of jealousy when you see others in happy, fulfilling relationships on social media. But I was reminded of this and still remind myself that Social Media posts/bragging/Facebook posts about relationships aren't always truthful and are a lot of times heavily embellished to make it appear perfect for affirmation and 'likes' from others. There are also studies that show the people who constantly embellish or brag about their relationship on social media are heavily insecure, both of themselves and the relationship. I know that from personal experience and because many times people forget that others know them in real life, and know they are lying about their lives/happiness on social media.

Yes absolutely, staying busy helped me avoid getting back into the head space of rehashing the conversations and stopping myself from moving on. Once I moved I joined a new gym, went to IKEA and bought some nice furniture, started exploring the city and the parks/green spaces, hiking, joined some sports fan clubs of the teams I like and started finding ways to relieve myself of the stress and tears and stay active instead of sitting around in my house letting my mind get lost in sorrow. Of course I still had bad days where I'd watch an episode of a show or hear/see something that reminded me of Tim, but I didn't let that one single trigger ruin my entire week like I did when I was still living in our hometown.

I was able to move forward without becoming jaded, but for a while especially during the first few months I was absolutely jaded, but that's mostly because I was trying to actively stop myself from loving him by reminding myself of all the crappy things he did. It didn't really work, but it stopped me from contacting him. Some 3 years later, no I am not jaded at all. I am however more cautious and observant of who I go on dates with, who I talk to and I don't hesitate to walk away or stop talking to someone if my gut says its not right or if I know they don't mean me well, are just looking for hook-ups or someone to take care of them. I also don't focus all my time on dating or searching for a partner anymore, I invest more time in friendships and my life, hobbies and happiness instead. It works for me. I am not saying you have to stop looking for a partner or relationship, just maybe look at it from a different perspective than needing to fill a void with a relationship like I once did, and that dating is an extra-curricular activity that you do when you have your priorities straight and can pay your bills, and not every relationship is meant to last or turn into a marriage. I go about it more practically these days as I used to just throw myself into situation/relationships without thought, they'd end poorly and I'd let it pick at my self-worth, but not learn and just repeat the cycle, it was not healthy and it was absolutely embarrassing.

On 11/29/2018 at 6:53 AM, kayc said:

I remember after Jim broke up with me, it was a trigger to go to the park or the A & W because we used to go there.  Now it doesn't bother me at all though, but that first year after it was hard.  Now his XW lives with him, glad we aren't married!  Oh and I found out he didn't pay his property taxes the last four years, that's crazy!  Of course had we been married, I never would have let that happen.  But I don't need someone to take care of.  He's a good guy but I wouldn't need that in a partner.  He's a mess.

Oh good lord! He didn't pay his taxes?! You would have walked into a hail of financial ruin and possible tax audits. You absolutely do NOT need to be taking care of a grown person who can't even be responsible enough to do normal adult things, that is just unhealthy. You absolutely dodged a bullet.

--Rae 

On 11/25/2018 at 12:47 AM, Vanush said:

Ahh yes, probably true. I perhaps regret that mindset now, but what is done, is done. The only issue is, I keep looking at photos of her if I'm sad or having a bad day, wondering if it could have worked. It is like a drug addiction I think, i can't seem to stop. And yet what I think whilst looking at her (she quite possibly was the most attractive female I've seen) is so different from what I felt around her. This inconsistency between feelings and impressions seems to plague me, and I don't understand it.

But I'm very sure and firm in the belief that it is done now. The clarity may never come, but I have to try to move on. A cruel emotion I've never had before..intense regret

You will move on and with the time will come the clarity. As I've said before it took me nearly a year to fully move on from Joe: to stop hating him, stop being angry and stop letting his behavior and our past relationship occupy so much head space. I cried for months after we broke up, I annoyed my close friends with the constant need for reassurance that everything was going to be okay and that I would move on and find someone deserving of my affection. Fast forward 5, almost 6 years and now, he's nothing more than a guy I consider an acquaintance even though at one point I'd have followed him to the end of the Earth had he wanted me to. I didn't realize it at the time, but not long after that first year came and went, I didn't even realize it until a friend pointed out that I seemed better and like I had fully began moving forward.

I also cried for months, both times Tim and I broke up. The pain, regret and rehashing conversations in my head seemed endless, but after about 5 months, I stopped crying and started taking stock of all the things that had happened and everything I had done since. By about 12 months post-breakup, I didn't even see him as this great, wonderful person I believed he was that I missed out on being with. I saw him for the cold, cruel, emotionally unavailable person he truly was. The events that transpired after we broke up with me suddenly getting a new job and moving away definitely helped, the distance from the city we both lived in, his family and our mutual friends helped as I didn't drive by the place where we first met or frequently went on dates, or where he lived. I now had a job with some disposable income and no longer had to neglect paying one bill to pay another, and moving away definitely helped me learn to fill the existential void I had always felt inside without needing a significant other to do so.

It was weird at first and I was afraid so much happiness was not going to last, so I tried to search for negativity, bad things or things that could go wrong for a while and when I came up empty handed, I realized that I had spent so much time comfortable being hurt, abandoned, sad and traumatized that I was actually afraid of things going right and didn't know how to react when I no longer had reasons to be sad or felt hurt.

At some point, YOU WILL have the moment of clarity you seek. But part of the reason why the clarity hasn't come to you is because you're chasing it and trying to will it to come. Just like with chasing a person and you "willing" yourself to love them, you cannot will yourself to have that moment of clarity. It will come randomly, but that does not mean you can give up working on moving forward with the rest of your life.

--Rae 

On 11/18/2018 at 5:40 AM, Vanush said:

Oh gosh I’m so sorry to hear u had that experience kayc, 

Thankyou Rae, I certainly hope so. I’m actually glad I could have had that experience now, as I’ve realised that I would not want this partner in my life as I reflected upon the way I was treated. You have learnt a lot from these struggles and carved meaning definitely from your situations. I’m sure that mine will aid me to find meaning somehow just like you have done. It saddens me that people treat one another in this way. Interesting that you stopped talking about him in that way and it helped, something I may put into practice for myself.

i just feeel like relationships are repeating in patterns now, and I find someone I’m not quite keen on, or vice versa. At this demanding point in my career too, there is less room and emotional availability to support a partner as I’d like. 

These relationships and these people come across path and shape us, similar to natural selection I believe, hopefully enabling us to carve a better path each time. Some of us take longer however, and at 30 I definitely feel I’m ready to give myself wholly to someone. 

What happened with Sarah still leaves me pining for her, as a concept rather than an individual. On paper, and in my head it is so appealing. I wonder if it has to do with her physical attractiveness, her kindness or her good family. I often find myself fantasising about being with her and messaging her and everything working out, and yet I had that, and didn’t feel it was right. I scald myself for being superficial but good looks, a nice family and kindness are all things that seem to draw me in, and not let me move on. 

I feel like the answer to all of this is on the tip of my tongue and all it would take is for someone just to point it out to me and I could move on from her, but it just won’t let me yet. I theorise that I would have felt different if I was more settled in my career, in my hometown and our communication was better. Sarah and I never seemed like a possibility as e weren’t able to communicate properly regarding future plans or be open enough with one another. Because of this, I felt like my feelings were that it was a dead end. At least this is what I am hoping is the explanation for clarity’s sake. Had we met at a different time where I was more available and practicalities could have worked out maybe we would have clicked. This seems to be the only rational explanation for why it didn’t develop further than the initial spark for me, despite it appearing perfect.

You are obviously in quite a good place now, am I right? I am so sorry to hear everything that happened to you but it is amazing the wisdom it has given you

 

Thanks, Vanush. It certainly took me a lot of time and therapy to get to the point I am at now, but it was definitely worth it. Even if the heartbreak didn't feel as such at the time. It very well could be that you felt such pressure because you weren't where you wanted to be in your life/career and didn't feel you could give yourself to her the way that she wanted, that's a common reason people cite for breaking up with a person, actually. While some times it is used as an excuse (for instance, my ex-fiance and his behavior), many times it is valid and a good reason to break up. But again as you've stated, the communication was poor, you didn't feel on the same page about anything and and your feelings came to a dead end. Don't scald yourself for being human, it happens.

I did the exact same thing when Tim and I first broke up. I got stuck believing and fantasizing about superficial things like him looking so great on paper and IRL, him being kind and seemingly everything I could ever want in a partner. When the reality of the situation shattered my fantasy, I felt so stupid for acting as I did and regretting my own behavior because he made me feel as though I caused him to behave the way he did.

To answer your statement: Yes. I am in a much better place than I was 3 years ago. Mentally, emotionally and physically, I've never felt better. I de-cluttered everything and instead of going towards drama, hanging around people who mean me no good, or actively seeking it out of boredom and loneliness; I notice it in others, take a step back and remove myself. I have accomplished many things that would've otherwise been put on hold. I started traveling again (15 countries in just over 2 years), finally found a job that I can use my degree for and left my small town. I also practice better mental health by going to therapy, talking about my feelings and learned to enjoy being alone instead of being afraid.

1 hour ago, Vanush said:

Ahh yes, very interesting. That connection you had with George, I know what that feels like. I had t once, and I was so so lucky to. It doesn’t need forcing or work in the beginning, it just worked. Later on I had the things and the compromises but I wanted to do this, it was out of my own will. 

With Sarah, I didn’t have it. I just felt stuck, and pressured to make a decision. 

At the core of this is a very tough decision, and one that I doubt regularly. I couldn’t choose a partner here (or so I thought) because I needed to be close to my family. They need me, and I can’t help but think I owe them a debt to be near them. That is not to say they have verbalised that, but I know it to be true. For this reason, I don’t think I was in the right mindset to fully give myself to Sarah and start a relationship. Even when I brought it up, telling her that that was where my life was headed, she did not say anything, I think our communication was poor. To see it as a viable relationship I needed her to tell me it was possible, but that didn’t happen. I think that is part of why we never got past the initial spark, because there wasn’t a viable future in my head. 

Please excuse my ramblings, but I am seemingly getting more and more clarity

The mentality of owing a debt to your family will come back to bite you in the long run. I used to think this way too and screwed myself out of opportunity due to fear, distance and the possibility of what could go wrong. Had I made better decisions, I would've chosen to leave for college instead of stay. This needing to be near and in contact with my family caused me more heartache than it was worth. Part of this was because I was afraid for my mom and younger brother due to my stepdads abuse. I left when I was 17, but I stayed around because my brother was only 13 and didn't have that choice. My oldest sister is a narcissist and does nothing but scorch earth every time she doesn't get her way. When I was in my teens and early 20s I didn't understand why she'd act like my best friend for a while, then steal from me, do/say horrible things and then get upset when my family confronted her. She still acts this way and she's 32, and now has a child and is imprinting this behavior and using her child to get her way. My dad enables her to no end for reasons I will never understand.

Since moving away, I have removed myself from her access and taken back control over how she is allowed to engage with me. My grandmother is extremely religious and always used to tell me how college was a lie and I should be in church instead of school and a myriad of other hurtful things, again since creating physical distance from her, she doesn't get a reaction from me anymore and I just ignore it now. I am 100% in control of my feelings and who I allow to interact and be around me, I also created healthier boundaries and no longer discuss dating or my relationships with my family. Sometimes, distance can do you a favor and be good for you. Don't screw yourself out of opportunity just because it may be a few hours drive/plane ride back to your parents. I don't think they'd want you to put your life on hold for them either.

--Rae 

43 minutes ago, kayc said:

This is so true!  It is what aided me in my getting over Jim (fiance that broke up with me by Fed Ex)...except I do think he cares about me, just didn't want to marry me (why did he propose then?)...we are friends to this day, close friends, but I've been glad that things ended up as they did.  He now has his XW living with him, he has a lot of issues, I'm glad they're not mine to deal with!  He's not "coupled" with his ex, just took her in when she was homeless.  But what a mess that could have been!

Yeah, that is a whole mess of issues that would've been thrust unto you and your marriage. No one should ever want to carry around that much baggage, nor should they expect their SO to be okay with being burdened by issues that are not theirs. Glad you ducked out of that, you're better off.

49 minutes ago, kayc said:

OMG, yes!  My first husband cheated on me throughout our six year marriage...not only cheated but beat on me continually.  I feel no jealousy for the wives he's had since (I think he's now on #8), only sorrow.  My second husband (kids' dad) we were married 23 years and he lied to me throughout, lied and pretended, he was a hypocrite, I know, harsh words, but he couldn't be "real" with me or others.  I cared about him very much and understand him but it was very hard to live with.  He would never come clean with me if someone put a gun to his head.  My George was my third husband and he never would have cheated.  A friend's wife was in love with him but alas guys are the last to know, he seemed quite naive about it.  I only know he never would have acted inappropriately and would spout off if anyone came on to him (and did).  He seemed quite naive about women, but it felt good to have implicit trust in him for we were completely and madly in love with each other.  My fourth husband turned out to be anything but a husband, he was a con who preyed on me, not intending to ever live with me and be in a real marriage, but married me for my credit, which he used to the tune of $57,000 and then quit his job and went into hiding...with a girlfriend...his second one he lived with during our marriage...he never did live with me.  Technically the "marriage" lasted two years, in reality it never was one at all...more like I was a victim to a con artist when I was most vulnerable, a grieving widow who didn't know where to turn.

I had two fiances beside, the first one also cheated on me one time that I know of...we had a date and I fixed a picnic lunch, fried chicken, pie, and potato salad, a lot of work...he never showed up.  I later learned he'd gone to play tennis with his ex girlfriend who wanted him back!  Fast forward 42 years and he's still trying to get me back, he never did marry.  Ha!  I'm not that stupid!  I have not forgotten how he broke my heart all those years ago, nor should I.  The other fiance didn't cheat on me but he broke up with me, by Fed Ex no less, when his mom was dying.  Something I've discovered is fairly common in grief, but not something I'd want in a partner.

After a while I asked myself, why have I settled for so little in partners?  I deserve no less than what George gave me!  And I will not settle again.  It has to be all or nothing for me!  Not that I think anyone is perfect any more than I am, but they do have to love me, treat me with respect, and even open up to me and want to spend time with me.  Why marry anyone otherwise?  And there has to be love and caring...I'd want someone who was my best friend.  I get that much out of my dog!

I get that from my kids' dad.  I have caring feelings for him, we were a family for 23 years, how could I not!  But I'm not and never have been "in love" with him, he never opened up to me.  You ask why I married him...he put on quite an act before we were married, I guess I got swept up in what he presented, we had similar backgrounds and goals, we partnered well together and communicated well on a superficial level, but never did on an intimate level.  Now he treats his 4th wife like a queen, even though life with her has to be disappointing.  She does not host his family, his kids do not feel welcome over there, she is given to fits and rages and has contributed very little to their marriage, but he does not want to feel a failure for the fourth time, so he strains to please her.  Ha!  He cared little if he pleased me!  I who was kicked out of his bed the last 15 years!  (And it was MY bed!)  

So I guess it's fair to say I have some feelings leftover for how I was treated.  I've tried to deal with it, who wants leftover baggage to carry around with them?!  I've gotten counseling.  I've reached the point where I wish only well for them.  But it was weird for me to see how well he treats her and how he cared so little for me.  Maybe she's his dream woman, I don't know.  And for the 4th husband, John, he gives more regard to Cindy, his current partner, because "she was there for him when he had cancer".  ??!!  I would have too had he stuck around!  

The only thing I can say about them is it's to their chagrin that they didn't see the diamond they had...and threw away.  I deserve better...and I got it in George.  We valued each other above any other person, we were soul mates and best friends.  That is what to hold out for.

 I asked myself why I settled for so little too, many many times. I just thought it was part of the human experience of young adulthood, I was only partially correct. As 95% was my own doing by way of low self esteem, self-sabotage, anger, the desperate want to be loved in ways I didn't know how to love myself, and the hard headed belief in those ridiculous cliche sayings about love conquering all.

But I have also taken cues from my parents' relationships as well and realized that they made the poor relationship decisions they did because they were just like me. My dad doted on his 3rd wife like you wouldn't imagine and my mom asked why she wasn't deserving of that same love during their 16 years and 4 children. She understood my dad, but 16 years of cold, non-intimate connection, infidelity and disrespect was more than enough. My dad put on an act as well prior to marrying my mom, he even joined her family's church so my grandmother would approve of their dating. But once they got married, and my sister was on the way, the curtain fell and all my dad's trauma, bad habits and poor mental health began to manifest in his behavior.

I've done my best to unload my baggage, not only does it become too heavy the more you heap onto it, but it also makes you vulnerable to con artists, abusers and users. And after reflection and reality checks, those were the only kinds of people I noticed were coming around because they could smell and see my desperation.

1 hour ago, kayc said:

bout them is it's to their chagrin that they didn't see the diamond they had...and threw away.  I deserve better...and I got it in George.  We valued each other above any other person, we were soul mates and best friends.  That is what to hold out for.

Amen to that! I've learned to hold out for someone who treats me with the same respect, love and affection as I do them. My ex-fiance finally figured out what he gave up and that how he behaved hurts people.. only took him 5 years and a girl treating him the same way for him to care, and I deserve better. As far as Tim goes, I don't hold my breath hoping that he'll ever grow up and apologize or learn from his behavior, nor do I want an apology anymore, because it doesn't seem he was ever made accountable for anything in his life and if he hasn't learned by 30, he never will. I wish them well, but I closed and dead-bolted both doors long ago.

--Rae 

7 hours ago, Vanush said:

That is a beautiful song, thanks for sharing. I cannot wait to finish my last professional exam and be able to have time to talk a little more with someone about this. A peculiar experience I had today, when I bumped into an old partner, not Sarah, but the girl I dated before. I saw her with her new partner, and it really brought some strange feelings up for me. I can’t say anger, or sadness, but somewhere in this vicinity. She was perhaps my first true love and she broke my heart by being unfaithful. Perhaps there is still hurt there which I need to explore, have either of you experienced this?

Oh most definitely. Joe and I broke up due to his infidelity as well. He then left me for the girl he had been cheating with. The first year was rough, as we lived in a small town and I would see them together periodically at the gym, grocery store or photos of them with the few mutual friends we had on social media. After a few months I switched gyms, grocery stores and removed the mutual friends or their updates from my feeds.

That hurt ran deep. The sting you get when you see them with their new partner treating them the way they should have treated you, it hurts. It is definitely something you do need to explore, perhaps bring this up to your counselor and describe the feelings you felt upon first glance. Especially if it's been longer than 6-12 months since the break-up. I repressed my feelings in the same way it seems you are and it took me over a year to fully move on from him because I was ashamed to admit I was still hurting. I say that because about 8 months after our break-up, I was talking about it to a close friend who knew us both and through our relationship. We'd had conversations about this topic multiple times before.....She stopped me after about 10 minutes and was like, "Rae, you need to stop talking about this like it happened yesterday. I understand you loved him and may still be reeling from the experience. But, the way you still talk makes it seem like you're stopping yourself from moving forward on purpose. You are obsessing and it is unhealthy. Are you still in contact with him? Do you believe that you deserved what he did? You sound like you're still in love with him and are holding on to the hope that you may get back together one day. It's okay to still not be completely out of love with him, but you need to face the reality that you are not getting back together. Ever. Why would you want him back anyway? He put a ring on your finger, then cheated on you, lied, blamed you for his behavior, and will probably propose to this girl, and do the exact same thing to her. You're only 22, you can't waste your life on people like this. He doesn't deserve it and neither do you. You have a degree to finish and a career to look forward to. You can't let this derail your entire life, and that's what you're doing."

I started seeing a therapist again a few weeks later, and it helped a lot. Some 4.5 years later in 2017 he tried reconciling and apologizing for how he behaved (turns out she had left him for another guy after he had tried to propose), and I wanted no part of his pity party. The way I see it now, him cheating on me was probably the best thing he could've ever done for me.

About 7 months after we had broken up and I had moved away in 2016, I was scrolling social media, a profile popped up on my "people you may know" list. The picture was of my ex-bf Tim and what I assumed was his girlfriend. Again the sting of hurt took over. This time around however, I just removed the profile from my list and got off social media for a few days. I then removed the couple of mutual profiles we had in common. I was already seeing a therapist at the time, so I brought it up and she asked how I felt. TBH, yeah it hurt a little bit as it seemed like he had moved on unscathed by how he treated me or what he did, but then the counselor told me to remind myself of all the hurt he had caused me, and look at what I have done with my life since then that I wouldn't have been able to do if we'd stayed together (left a crappy job, got my own apartment, started traveling again, moved alone to a new city, etc) and as I started to repeatedly remind myself of all that I've accomplished and will continue to, suddenly, the hurt started to fade and I stopped thinking about him as this great person I missed out on. Instead, he's just a guy I dated that used me to fill a void in his life because I had what he was lacking. He was a guy I didn't have a future with anyway because he didn't support my goals and only loved the idea of me, not me.

Being honest and truthful about the reality of the situations I had been in did wonders for helping me to heal, move on and accept that I don't need and shouldn't want people in my life that only like the idea of me, not me as a person, who don't mean me well and don't support my goals.

You will get to this point too, Vanush. But it does take work. And you are already doing the work by coming here and going to therapy. You want to heal, and you will.

--Rae 

2 hours ago, kayc said:

I've been through it...four marriages and two engagements besides.  Only one of them truly loved me, he was my soul mate and best friend, and I lost him to sudden death over 13 years ago.  I know loss.  My father died when I was 29, my mom 4 years ago, a niece, a nephew, my sister this year, and I nearly lost my other sister recently.  She has dementia and suffers falls with dire consequences.  I've lost countless friends and pets.  Grief is my companion and I've learned to coexist with it.

You have a lot on your plate.  Your remark about cumulative losses is spot on, one can trigger an old one and it feels like they pile up until you feel you can't take any more.

I hope you'll get continued help from a professional grief counselor, it can be really hard to navigate all this on your own.  One of the harder things for me to learn was self-care, validating myself, learning that I don't need someone to complete me, I've lived alone for 13 years but it was eight years ago when I stopped feeling like I had to have someone in my life.  I haven't dated since.  It's not that I rule out the possibility, I'm just not actively seeking it, I'm okay being just me.

I've learned to realize the whole of the person, remember the good, but also be pragmatic enough to recall that all is not perfect in any relationship, even one you consider perfect for you.  We try to learn from what we've been through and that can give a positive slant to it.

 

Grief is my companion and I've learned to coexist with it.

--YES, SO BEAUTIFUL AND POIGNANT! 

4 hours ago, KristenH said:

Thank you so much.

It's so strange. After everything, the most painful loss is this most recent one: of Peter, who I was with for a year and who was my best friend, but is not my husband of 11 years, my father, or my sister! It seems impossible for it to hurt more than anything, yet, I have to be honest, it does. I think I'm projecting the pain from other stuff onto the loss of him. Does that make sense to you?

Yes, this absolutely makes sense. I lost my grandfather to cirrhosis and liver failure when I was 20 (I am 27 now), and 9 months later my best friend killed himself. My grief experience after John killed himself was the opposite of how I behaved after my grandfather passed; I emotionally abandoned my relationship/boyfriend, stopped going to work and left school for the semester. The idea that the grief "compounded" onto itself due to the time frame of all your (and my losses) is definitely a plausible one. As is the projection and the triggering of old wounds when further experiences and losses occur.

When my ex-fiance and I ended our relationship after 7 years, I felt the same sting of abandonment, hopelessness and loneliness I had felt after dealing with their deaths. We ended our relationship less than 2 years after I lost my grandfather and John, and even though I had gone to therapy and began to get back on track with my life, these feelings hit me like a ton of bricks and like I was back to square one with nowhere to turn and no idea what to do with myself. The relationship that brought me to this forum lasted 14 months, 20 in total before calling it quits for good. He blindsided and devastated me with his behavior after his father died suddenly and again I was back at square one feeling abandoned and like no one else would ever love me and I began to panic. That was 3 years ago, and like KayC, I have not pursued a romantic relationship since. I have placed my focus on my career, hobbies, self-care and other interests. Though I am not closed off to a relationship, I came to terms with my short-comings and turned my focus from ignoring them into working on them and placing a higher value on myself versus a romantic relationship.

--Rae 

2 hours ago, Vanush said:

Yes, so very poignant! 

I do wait for the day I can spring out of bed and not think of her. But it still gets me and I am drawn into the illusion and trick of what could have been. 

It would be such interesting science/psychology, to figure out, how I have gotten over relationships that lasted 2 years, in the space of 6 months, yet Sarah and I were never in a relationship, and 4 months later I still find myself in a bind. What a peculiar thing the human mind is. 

The desire and anxiety to find that "one" who will complete you and make you a happy person is at play here I believe, and just as you have both pointed out in your previous posts, it is not a healthy thing to be continually searching for this person to make you happy. It is better to go out with no expectations and make your own fun, your own achievements, and then one day, unexpectedly, you may come across someone who stuns you. 

Until then, it is great to have such a good community of minds!

You have to make YOU happy. It is not anyone else's responsibility to fix, nor is is their's to make you feel whole. You already are whole, you just need to fix the part of yourself that tells you you aren't. It took me a long time, lots of therapy and bad relationship experiences to realize this. Unfortunately society tells us that love does conquer all, if we're meant to be, to accept people as they are, and that "love meets you in your mess, not your best".... None of which are wholly true and we get swept up in the belief that they are. Yes, you should accept someone for who they are, but if they behave poorly or treat you poorly why would you stay with them? That isn't fair and its terrible relationship advice. For all of those sayings to have any merit, you need to have boundaries, a healthy sense of self and need to communicate. And many do not because again, those ridiculous cliche sayings and how we behave and view relationships teaches us poor decorum, communication and bad habits. (Alain's talk highlights this quite well.).

Read a few books on Biological Psych, Social and Relationship Psychology. Alain De Botten is a great resource, as is Andrew Solomon if you're actually interested in understanding it as well. If you are talking to a therapist, ask if they have any recommendations, too. Some of the articles Marty posts on here may be of help too. I began exploring Bio Psych and Social Psych in college as I felt my studies in BioChem/Anat & Phys were missing the Psychological aspects. As mental health plays a role in overall physical health.

https://youtu.be/RiM5a-vaNkg

This Ted Talk is by Andrew Solomon, he talks about tragedies in people's lives, how they've come to terms with them and what about their lives/feelings/outlook of the world has changed since the experiences occurred.

-- Rae 

On 10/28/2018 at 8:58 AM, kayc said:

Amen to that!  I've had to learn to value myself.  I am my own best company!  Did I plan to be alone?  No!  But it is okay that I am.

I didn't plan of it either. But I am okay with it now. Not just okay, actually happy with it. Now I know that regardless of what happened between Tim and I, we would've broken up at some point anyway because of his Emotional Unavailability. As far as Joe and I, I hadn't planned on ever being apart from him. But now I realize that if we had gotten married when I was 22, we'd be miserable and divorcing right now. In a way, him cheating on me was the best thing he could've ever done for me.

I just heard something that rings true, especially in situations like ours when the worst of people is revealed....

"I don't think crisis makes heroes, I think crisis reveals who you were before it happened." - Dr. Phil

--Rae 

On 10/28/2018 at 4:12 AM, Vanush said:

Yes that's so true! 

I have essentially been by myself the past 3 years, and I have built so much resilience in this time. Ironically in this time I have changed careers and moved states, confronting some of my most feared challenges.

I can also see the wise lessons it has taught both you and kayc. I am wondering, what were your takeaway messages from Alain de botton's speech? Mine were: 1. We shouldn't look for perfection in a partner 

2. We need to communicate and work on our flaws constantly so we don't fall into pathological patterns.

On 10/28/2018 at 6:56 AM, Vanush said:

Ergh, don’t you just hate the waves of emotion that come over you when you least expect it! It’s strange how I can forget so easily the feeling of it just not being right, that is distant in the memory, but I won’t forget all her positives.  it still burns really intensely! I am left to grieve over whether something could have been done to change my feelings at that time. Maybe had I worked on myself a little more I would have been in the right place, maybe had I stuck at it longer...

My takeaways from Alain's talk were both of yours plus 3. Love is a skill we need to develop over time, not just as children, but adults too. 4. That everyone is a varying degree of difficult to deal and live with LOL. But that doesn't make us unworthy of love, it makes us human 5. That it's okay to desire human connection, but we're all so bad at it because of our poor communication and other habits that society tells us are good and normal. But its hard to unlearn all those bad habits, though it is possible. 6. Don't be afraid to say "I need you" and tell your partner what you want/need from them.

Hindsight is 20/20 when you wish to go back and change something with the knowledge you know now. Wallowing in that state of mind will eat you alive. But, you can't change the fact that even though she was good on paper for you, your mind/gut/feelings told you otherwise. Listen to them. I will reiterate that being attracted to someone does not make them good/right for you and vice versa. Maybe that's all it was meant to be. As I said in previous posts, communication was lacking from both ends, you said the "spark" fizzled after a few weeks in (that should be your first indication. Real chemistry doesn't die so quickly and, its something you both need to work at maintaining, especially in an LTR or after the honeymoon ends) and it seemed you both just assumed things would fall into place naturally....Unfortunately life and relationships don't work that way.

Look at it this way: If that relationship was meant to last longer than three months, it wouldn't have died so swiftly during what most would argue is the easiest, most fun and happiest part of a relationship (the honeymoon phase). Ironically I believe why they call it that is because you're still riding off the endorphins of meeting and discovering someone new. Kind of like the high some get at their weddings and then when that and the honeymoon are over... reality sets in and for a lot of people unfortunately married and LTR life isn't what they envisioned and it takes more work than expected (see Relationship/Marriage Fantasy Goggles).

5 hours ago, Vanush said:

Thankyou very much for that video Rae, it’s a fascinating one, I’ve decided to see someone and chat about relationships etc. Because it seems like I meet many lovely people, but haven’t met someone who I’ve really truly felt was for me. It’s so funny how that happens in life and I have been hoping that it is not me, and that I haven’t met the right person. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t. Being alone has its real positives though, it was only the other night when I was thanking my lucky stars for being able to be alone on a hot summer’s night, it can get so hot lying next to someone. 

What ive discovered with a therapist has been fascinating. I think my inability to find th right person may be due to in some part to the instability in my life currently, living out of my home state for so long to pursue a dream and do further study, which will not be complete until early next year. With such an unstable and stressful existence right now and isolated from my long-time friends, I desire something to give me stability and calm. And it seems to me like that may not be able to be achieved until I find that stability which will inevitably come when I finish. I suppose it reflects what you have said here, we have to work on ourselves and be whole before coming together as a couple, only then can u bring a positive energy to a relationship. 

Sarah gave me that stability, but it wasn’t a romantic relationship. I believe perhaps I need to find that stability first, and I will then be ready to be in a relationship.

Alain de Bolton was truly fascinating, I am watching him again!

It's great that you've made the choice to talk to a professional and gain some clarity about your feelings. Instability is uncomfortable for many people, and tricky in that it drives us to seek stability (or at least, the illusion of it) in others without looking at why we're unstable instead. While it's understandable and totally normal to do this, it isn't necessarily healthy.

I too have fallen prey to the illusion of finding stability in others because I didn't have stability in my own life at the time, and believed getting into a relationship or dating would help me find it (because society tells us it does, weird right?) Long story short, I got into a "situationship" for a couple months with an equally unstable person.... and it went super well....just kidding LOL.

See that's the funny thing about life: You're going to meet thousands of people, and you're going to be attracted to a lot of them for various reasons. You're going to have relationships (friendship, romantic, familial, professional) with them. But until you learn to communicate, be honest, know who you are, be willing to be vulnerable, and understand that love is a skill needing to be developed; you're going to have a lot of unfulfilling, unhealthy relationships in all aspects of your life.

Sometimes a great person, love or relationship can inspire us to want to change or be better, but we won't change until WE want to.

Also, that being single and "alone" is not a bad thing. It doesn't mean you are lonely, either. I feel it is a necessary part of the human experience, especially when it is used to focus on self-growth, building a life for yourself and reflection. 

Always remember that even when you feel like you have no one, you still have yourself. You're the longest relationship you'll ever have. Don't teach yourself you're invaluable just because others fail to see it.

--Rae 

10 minutes ago, kayc said:

I've been told he was different when he was younger but seeing his best friend killed right in front of him in Viet Nam had it's effects, and he had an alcoholic mom that also left it's mark.  He needed counseling.  If I tried to talk to him about anything emotional, he'd stonewall me (shut me out).  I do feel sorry for him, he was a good man, I understood him, just couldn't live with it any more.  One thing I've learned, it takes more than one to make a marriage!

I guess I'm too old and too exhausted to go through all this any more.  Oddly enough, when I married George, the adjustment seemed so effortless, although both of us actually put in a great deal of effort.  We did so out of love and want to.

My son was incredulous when his dad got married to someone so messed up...he said, "Didn't he even look around before he got married?"  I answered, "No, he never did, he just went to town and got another girl."  As if you can build a marriage with just anyone.  I feel that's what he did with me too.  It's sad, he was so smart when it came to everything else!  Some people put in more effort buying new tires than they do selecting their spouse!

Sounds just like my father. My mom loved him and understood he had problems, and tried to help. But he didn't want her help and after 16 years of him behaving as he did, she just said 'enough.' My dad's 3rd wife was nothing short of an attention seeking narcissistic mess. She's now a felon due to theft, money laundering and lord knows what else. He knew she was a mess, but believed her sob stories and that she was still a good person and that regardless of her past, he could love her enough to change her....until he started finding evidence of her indiscretions and illegal activities.

He's a smart man, has hobbies, a great job and is a good dad and grandfather; he just makes really, REALLY poor decisions when it comes to relationships.

19 minutes ago, kayc said:

My son was incredulous when his dad got married to someone so messed up...he said, "Didn't he even look around before he got married?"  I answered, "No, he never did, he just went to town and got another girl."  As if you can build a marriage with just anyone.  I feel that's what he did with me too.  It's sad, he was so smart when it came to everything else!  Some people put in more effort buying new tires than they do selecting their spouse!

My brothers and I said pretty much the exact same thing when he was engaged after his 2nd marriage less than a year later, then they ended and he got with his 3rd wife. It is astounding how little common sense and thought people put into such a huge decision.

3 hours ago, kayc said:

Well I know I tried that for 23 years with my kids' dad, and you know what?  It never got any better.  23 years spent with a cold unloving person that although I cared about him and still do, the intimacy was lacking throughout.  He gave nothing emotionally.  It's like trying to deny yourself each and every day of your life of a very basic need.  He needed help and refused to get it.  We cannot fix someone, cannot change them and often cannot get through to them.  Unless we are both in a state of readiness and have done what we could to heal ourselves, if need be, we are not prepared to bring ourselves to the table, so to speak, of a loving relationship.  When we bring baggage to a relationship, we have just that, a relationship with a lot of baggage.  Some of us can attest to that!

Yes it is a choice to love someone, yes that will to love them is a commitment necessary to get us through the tough times we all experience within our marriage, but that alone is not all that is needed.  One of the best books I ever bought and read is "The Five Love Languages".  Such a simple small little book that is so true and makes so much sense!  I bought it in my marriage to my kids' dad, and tried talking with him about it, alas he wasn't interested.  I felt like I alone was working to save our marriage and it's kind of like trying to swim ashore in an ocean without a life jacket or a paddle to help you.  It ended.  Oddly, he ended it.  Now he's on marriage #4.  Has it gotten any better for him?  No.  As I heard Pastor Roy Hicks once say, we live in a world where people think if something isn't working, you switch jobs, switch homes, switch partners, but in the end you realize the one common denominator is you, and it behooves our effort to work on ourselves.  

I have saved your post and want to share it with my women's group during the week our lesson is on marriage.  Such wisdom you possess!  The truth is, rather than look to someone else to be our knight in shining armor, to rescue us, to fulfill happiness in us, we need to address ourselves.  And I'm all about therapy and counseling to help us!  Lord knows I've probably bought a bungalow for mine...and my dentist...over the years. 

 

Aw, thanks KayC! I try to spread what I have learned in hopes it helps someone else.

Funny enough, your ex-husband sounds just like my father. My mother tried for 16 years to get him into couples counseling, marriage and individuals counseling and he adamantly refused it. He has some emotional issues stemming from an abusive childhood and a life spent in and out of foster homes. He even refused family/adolescent counseling when my sibling began getting into legal troubles as a teenager. He acted the same way as your ex did-- refuse, deny and bury the problem. Emotionally he left my mom (and us) alone and "out in the cold" when it came to the most basic of needs in their marriage. The irony being, he left his second wife after 4 years because "she emotionally abandoned him" and he was unhappy. To this day he denies any wrongdoing or cheating as if we don't already know the truth and have moved on from the drama. He just finalized his 3rd divorce this year and is already looking for a new girlfriend/wife. He changes cars, houses and wives like it's a game, but I guess he's relatively normal in his ways according to modern standards of dating/love. It's so confusing I can't even keep up anymore. He keeps searching for "enough," but when he has it, or believes he has it, he still looks for something better. At 50, I am surprised he isn't exhausted. I was exhausted by 25 and I don't have kids or marriage.

It dumbfounds me that he still acts this way and refuses to accept that the common denominator is HIM, but I've just accepted that's how he is and he will never change. He'll just keep repeating the cycle.

On 10/20/2018 at 2:53 PM, kayc said:

Wendy, someone who used to be here with us, recommended Christian Carter's Catch Him & Keep Him, which I also thought was interesting, but it seems like the philosophy in Christian Carter's book/dvds is more what Alain de Botton is referring to as setting someone up for distrust.  

Interesting video...I know that I married the "wrong person" more than once.  I've heard some counselors say that you "will to love someone" and therefore it's not the wrong person, but that you're not committed enough.  I disagree with that as some can be diabolically wrong!  I do think there's a lot of things we can do to help our marriages, learning good communication first off!

All I know is, whatever went on between George and I worked.  It really worked!  Out of all of the relationships I've had in my lifetime, this person got me, our communication was great, we knew how to make each other feel loved and supported.  Was that mere coincidence?  I don't think so.  I don't put much stock by coincidences, I think we did the right things that worked for each other.  It helped that we started as friends and built trust with each other.

I did get a kick out of what this guy had to say...how we choose what is familiar, even if that is to make us suffer!  Not sure that's what we all intend, but a certain number of us seems to fulfill it! 

That's why I tread lightly these days when reading "relationship advice" from people like Steve Harvey, Dr Phil, Christian Carter, etc because as Alain mentions, the kind of advice they give sets up distrust, and sometimes unhealthy dynamics within the relationship.

"Will to love someone," woof that's terrible advice. LOL. We can all be willing to love a person, which is why you see so many people stay in abusive, toxic or addict relationships because they're told things like that. Or the age old "love conquers all" nonsense. I know I've been willed to love (and marry) some diabolically terrible people for me. But because I wanted to, and did love a couple of them, I thought we were right for each other.

We definitely DO choose what is familiar to us. I know that a few of the guys I dated were because they were wounded in the same ways that I was, and I was drawn to it. But we do have to learn that love is a skill that needs to be learned and fostered. And as time goes on, you should be able to identify the not so great things about yourself and bad habits you need to work on. I did eventually, but I've met people who are significantly older than me who still date like they're teenagers, and it's funny but also kind of terrifying. 

--Rae

Thanks, KayC. As I said in a previous post, until the end of 2015 I had not been truly single/alone with myself since I was 14/15 years old. I watched countless YouTube videos, read book and scoured this site for advice on how to move on, be alone and deal with myself and my own problems. It was really hard, but living the lifestyle I was just gets exhausting, draining, filled with misery and I no longer had a sense of self or identity and hadn't known who I was for years. It was always the same situations with different faces and eventually the cycle had to break. I felt guilty for being so selfish until my therapist straight up told me I needed to be selfish to survive because everyone else is, and it is fundamental to our survival to be a healthy amount of selfish. We need to put ourselves first because no one else will.

Alain de Botten gives a fantastic talk about how we seek out love and accept it as long as it's "good enough" and how problematic that is to our longevity and overall happiness. This is a fantastic video.

https://youtu.be/DCS6t6NUAGQ

--Rae 

On 10/17/2018 at 7:42 AM, Vanush said:

Yes certainly, it does amaze me Rae that you are so young, you have so much vital insight to share. 

I believe you have hit the nail on the head with these insights. The concept of being emotionally unavailable is an intriguing one. What scares me about this situation was that with the subsequent people I have seen, it triggered me to think of Sarah fondly. I do not struggle to meet people, and am constantly meeting lovely people who I think are great. I don't feel nervous about talking to people or not being able to find someone who cares for me. What scares me however, is that I look at a lot of beautiful people now and I feel nothing, no desire or willing to date etc. This is what you've called emotionally unavailable and I agree. However, it feels like Sarah almost broke through that. Even though I met her at exactly the wrong time in my life when I was still mourning over the loss of a relationship, she made me feel significant feelings (even if it did not work out eventually). This comes back to the concept of right timing, but it scares me to think how wonderful things may have been had I not been in that place of mourning, or in the place of emotional unavailability. 

More importantly perhaps, I wonder how much time it will be until I can find another attractive again. I hope sooner rather than later. 

Kayc yes certainly, the further things go away, I forget how it all made me feel. 

I was, and still kind of am emotionally unavailable by choice after Tim and I broke up. I am not dating or looking for a relationship, so I intentionally do not get romantically involved with others. I focus on friendships, rather than crashing my way into a relationship like I did in my early 20s. Being emotionally unavailable especially after a relationship can be a good thing if you use it properly and as a time of self-work, discovery, healthy selfishness, self-awareness, focus and as a means to heal yourself so you don't get wrapped up into another relationship before you've healed from your last. Where it becomes a problem is when people (like Tim for example) use their being EU as an excuse to treat other people, especially a love interest or partner like crap. Being enigmatic and having problems is not an excuse to treat others like they don't matter, and unfortunately too many people, especially on the modern dating scene do this. I've also noticed that many people try to find others to fix their problems, pin their happiness into others and give their lives a sense of purpose, and then when their fantasy of the "perfect relationship" gets shattered, they blame the other person and just move on to someone new.

One of the most important things I've come to learn from my heartbreak, bad relationship/life experiences and grief, is that people need to stop expecting their prince/princess to come crashing into their lives and save them and solve their problems (kinda like we've read/watched in all the fairytale movies and books). The only person you should expect that from, IS YOU.

When you no longer NEED a crazy, ridiculous romantic relationship in order to feel alive and like you exist; when you can just be as you are, that's when I think you're ready to be in a couple.

However, I will say, it is okay to desire love, connection and intimacy. We are humans and its natural. The problem is we attempt to go about getting these things the wrong way, and we misconstrue what love is/looks like for things like toxic behavior, abuse, mistreatment, superficial qualities like salary, job or status and that make them good on paper but not good in real life, the need to save others to avoid our own problems, etc and it never goes well until we learn to fix these things within ourselves before seeking intimate connections with others.

--Rae 

Thank You, Kayc! That means a lot. The way you speak of George seems like the definition of "relationship goals." 

42 minutes ago, Vanush said:

Very poignant words Rae and Kayc, and I thank you so much, you’re words provide so much comfort to an absolute stranger. I have always believed in a common humanity, and this group represents it so strongly. It is so true, the push/pull that you’re describing Rae, it is exhausting and occurs when I let my emotional state get the better of me, without using my rational head. We are so risk-averse as human beings and in my heart as I approach a certain age I panic that I won’t be able to find someone. But the reality is to find true love and happiness I guess you have to risk not finding someone, and I am now ok with that. I believe I am emotionally unavailable, and am taking some time to work on myself. I feel like perhaps today I felt a little better for the first time too.

This concept of “almost relationship” resonates significantly with me Rae, have u had an experience like this? I knew so strongly it wasn’t the right thing for me, but I could not and maybe will not ever be able to describe why, it is intangible. For that reason she enters my thoughts frequently and I romantically fantasise about meeting her friends, family, feeling happy with her. Unfortunately in reality I wasn’t happy though.

Whoever you are and wherever u are, I hope you know what a huge positive impact you’ve had on this man’s life, thankyou

Thank you, Vanush! Your words mean so much. When I first found the Grief group, I was trying to understand why Tim was acting as he was 3 years ago. In the time since, I didn't find a way to make him stay, I found reasons, support and a way to get over him and that I deserved better than what he was giving me. So now I just share my story and offer advice hoping that others who are in the position I once was understand that they aren't alone and that even though our stories are all different, they're all similar too. And most importantly: The end of a relationship is not the end-all of their identity or lives, something I struggled with understanding when Joe left me and again when I left Tim.

I had panicked for years too that I wouldn't find someone after my ex-fiancee left me because he left me feeling like no one else could ever love me. I was barely 22 when that happened and I am 27 now. When Tim and I broke up I felt that same twinge of panic that maybe those thoughts that I wasn't lovable were right, and for a while, I believed them again. In the years since, a lot has changed and I don't feel that way anymore. For the last just about three years is the first time I haven't actively dated, been in an "almost" or an actual relationship since I was 15 years old. I had to learn to truly be alone for the first time in my entire life and I am okay with it now. Yeah, I may not find someone, but that doesn't mean I have to live a life of agony or one without love and purpose. In fact I feel the opposite, that if your only goal in life is to be married, then you are not ready to be married or part of a couple. You need to learn to be comfortable with yourself, sit by your own bedside and hold your own hand and build a life for yourself before you try to build one with another person. This was something I failed to do for years because I wholeheartedly believed that my life would finally have meaning and make sense when someone else loved me, and I was so wrong because I didn't even love, know or understand myself.

I have experienced an "almost relationship" as well as watched countless friends experience the same and deal with the fall out. My couple of "almost's" lasted about 2-3 months each, and while it was fun, I knew deep down it wasn't right or going to last but at the time I was so desperate for companionship I didn't care. I dodged a bullet with both of them too, as I found out later that one had gotten drunk beat up a woman he dated after me and the other apparently had multiple kids he didn't take care of. I cringe but laugh at the thought of the things I did in my early 20's after my ex-fiancee left me. I was so unhealthy and damaged, but I learned a lot of hard lessons from all that stuff.

My best friend was notorious for this because she so badly wanted a family, she tried making every guy she dated into a family man. After she left her ex-boyfriend and father of her son, it seemed like she'd find a guy and move him into her house within weeks and then 6 months later they'd break up. She did this for years and as much as I tried to convince her otherwise, she would never listen. But then again, I was guilty of this too, just not to the same degree.

--Rae 

1 hour ago, kayc said:

They say absence makes the heart grow fonder, perhaps because we forget all the things wrong...

This is definitely true. Also, because we convince ourselves that the "grass is still greener or it will be green next time," even when we've already been on the other side and know it isn't. Common feelings after a break-up.

What I've seen termed as "almost relationships" are harder to move on from because it never left the honeymoon phase and never came full circle. So, you get stuck thinking "if only XYZ thing had happened, maybe things would be different/would've worked out/this person was right for me" because you seemingly never had any "bad times," even if the red flags were glaring throughout the entire time you were together. Almost relationships really suck because you get stuck missing the person on their best behavior so you only have good things to say of them, and never really got to see who they truly were when hard times hit, you had a massive argument or other life happenings occur that test the strength of a relationship.

The age old saying rings true here: We desire what we can't have. It seems like the less you have her, the more you want her. But when she is within reach, you know it isn't right and want out. That may be a factor of you being emotionally unavailable.

My ex Tim was like that, especially after his father died. When we wouldn't see one another or chat much for a day or two, he was hot and couldn't get enough of me and wanted my attention. When we'd spend a weekend together, he'd act aloof and at times slightly out of reach. After his father's death and his ghosting me, he realized I had begun to move on because I went NC, he came back 3 months later begging to reconcile. When I didn't give in he pushed harder, when I finally started to give in, he fell back. It was a constant push and pull. It was exhausting. Don't let yourself fall into that trap.

You will get through this and these feelings will pass with time. It seems you are just going through the normal stages of breaking-up. But remember, YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS.

--Rae 

11 hours ago, Vanush said:

Thankyou, could I clarify what you mean here? I am very instinctual in relationships, but also try to blend with logic and my head. This is the first time I've ever been faced with logic that told me this was a wonderful partner, committed, loving and more. But this collided with my instincts that said I wasn't in love. It was devastating for me to realise this fact, and still I grasp at straws to find what could have changed between us. 

Yes, it is certainly interesting Rae how we are constantly told to be independent and strong, but we also are natural for wanting companionship. We seek so many different things, some of them seem to be healthy and others not so much. And indeed, one person's "maybe" is a "heck yes" for someone else. 

Currently, I am fighting every inch of my body which is telling me to call her up, apologise and rekindle things. I know that would simply put us through more pain, and that the chance has gone now. Dopamine tricks us into doing things that really aren't good for us.

Kayc, I can see both sides of the argument of bad timing as fallacy now. When I reflect upon meeting Sarah for the first time, I was still affected by a previous relationship. I thought 1 year had gone by and I was ready to continue to look for my life partner. But the reality was, I was still heartbroken. This surely played a part in my emotional unavailability at the time, and meant we didn't have much of a chance initially. However, her anxiety in bringing up "what are we" also contributed to this. The timing for meeting Sarah was not ideal. But as I believe, the right person can beat all of that. I have experienced that before, when I met a former partner 1 month before she planned to travel the world. That is the one time I have felt true love, and I promised myself after that relationship that I wouldn't settle for anything less. 

What I meant was, instead of just yelling at Sarah, saying "I don't know" etc, you actually sat her down and explained your POV, and you also explained it quite well in your OP. It made sense, it was logical and well thought.

You're quite right that our emotions and feelings trick us into doing things our head knows are no good for us. We've all done it. I struggled with walking away/not contacting Tim too. But I always tried to remind myself and my friends did too, that even if we got back together it wouldn't make my gut feelings, mistrust of him or the pain go away, and it'd end again the same way it did both times.before and I'd be back at square one of healing all over again. It wasn't fair to do that to myself.

Don't settle for less. Ever. Being EU after a relationship because of a heartbreak isn't a bad thing at all, it just means you need time to heal your wounds. However, when it starts affecting others then it's a problem. It seems like in your need to find love and companionship after, you found Sarah. Maybe the two of you weren't meant to last, but this was a lesson to make you realize that you still have some self work you need to do.

--Rae 

I haven't seen any evidence that Joe or Tim have changed, or ever will. In my case, they both used "bad timing" as an excuse because they were just cowards. However my belief of it being a fallacy may have more to do with the generational gaps and how younger people date and "commit" to one another now versus 25 years ago, too. But, who knows. If I met Joe or Tim now, I wouldn't engage in a romantic relationship with them because they haven't cleaned up their own messes or learned to be accountable for themselves yet. Part of the reason why I think I dated them was because I was wounded in a lot of the same ways that they are, and was looking for comfort and things I didn't believe I could find or get on my own. I didn't know how to be a good partner and knew little of boundaries, and neither did they. But, it's all a part of learning as we go through life, I guess.

But then again, it begs the question of: Why do we blame time for a person's inability to see what's in front of them or be ready for it? We're all at different stages in our lives and we change relatively consistently (or at least we should as we age), but we all exist within the same time. One person's "I'm not sure" is someone else's "heck yes!"

What I thought I wanted when I was 20-24 and who I found to be a suitable mate, I laugh and cringe about now because my mindset about my needs/life/relationships has changed drastically. Right/Wrong Timing is subjective, sure, but time in itself is objective.

4 hours ago, kayc said:

Yeah, I got that from Jim.  Ha!  It matters little, too, to me.  I wouldn't want someone who could throw in the towel and regard me so little!

Gosh Rae, between you and I, we're gleaned a lot of wisdom, sure was a lot of heartbreak along the way!

Ain't that the truth! Weird how people are so different, yet so predictable.

On 9/27/2018 at 7:25 AM, kayc said:

You might want to explore this with a counselor who can help you get to the bottom of this.  I was engaged to someone when I was young and he broke up with me, he had a commitment phobia.  His friend had warned me, but alas I thought he was wrong, he had been very loving to me and he was the one to get down on one knee and propose.  We were out of each other's lives for many years (he never did marry) and there's been times he would have liked to reconnect, but I wasn't having it.  Red flags!  And issues that never were resolved.  But they're his, and not mine, and I'm happy to go my own way.  At my age, I don't need all that!  I've earned my reprieve.  If I have someone I want them to be whole when they come to me, not a lot of baggage.  I've worked through mine, it's up to each person to work through their own and not bring it to a relationship.

You mention wrong timing...sometimes that can make a difference, but it's good to know if it's just that or something more.

My ex-fiance Joe (the one who cheated) has tried reconnecting with me twice in the past few years and neither time was I having it. I too have learned to seek counseling to solve my baggage and learn to deal with my problems on my own, and I certainly do not want anyone with baggage who actively refuses to acknowledge or work on theirs, that's just toxic. I used to be drawn to it because drowning in someone else's problems kept me busy enough to ignore my own, and that's not a healthy way to live. I was basically sleepwalking through my life because I was so engrossed in what everyone else was doing, instead of what I needed to do for myself.

I second what KayC has said in that you may want to seek a counselor to figure out why you feel this way and if it's more about your inability/fear to commit, or if you just weren't right for one another. You may also be emotionally unavailable, and that takes counseling to work on. Tim was/is, but refused to acknowledge it and refused to understand or confront why he was that way. You trusted your gut and thought about it from a logical stand point, but are now going through the emotions of a break-up (its normal to have these feelings). I felt very similar after I walked away from Tim, but I knew that even if I had tried to stay with him he would've just disrespected me further and I would never be able to escape the feeling of "he's gonna leave again, this doesn't feel right" and our relationship would've been doomed anyway.

I think that right/wrong timing is a fallacy, personally. Wrong timing is a cop out, and a way for people to excuse treating others poorly. Right timing I feel is an excuse people use to explain away the reservations/fears/inability to confront their feelings/problems. ex: "Well, the timing just felt right so I married her." They use their feelings instead of logic to make drastic decisions, and many rely on their feelings to determine the outcome of any/every situation, and it isn't a good thing. Tim told me that if his dad hadn't died, we'd still be together. Joe once told me that if he'd met me a few years later, after he'd gotten 'it' (casual relationships/sex) "out of his system" that our relationship would be different, he wouldn't have cheated and he would've been able to marry me. I also used to believe that it was just bad timing, too. NEWSFLASH: IT WASN'T. Joe is 30 now and still a serial monogamist, always in/out of casual short relationships with girls who are 10 years younger, and just recently moved out of his parent's house.

In your case Vanush, you actually thought through your responses with logic and tact, you also tried to explain them to her in a way that made sense to the both of you while also taking into account how you felt when around her, and when you broke up/got back together. That isn't a bad thing.

--Rae 

16 hours ago, kayc said:

So let me see if I understand this correctly, is your counselor putting this back on YOUR lap for YOU to be responsible for him?  Because I think that's a HUGE mistake, and if that's how you take it, I would definitely clarify that with her asap!  Notify his most responsible best friend and be done with it.  YOU can't be responsible for him!  Staying NO CONTACT serves a lot of purpose, I would not break that.  Number 1 it helps you get back to a place of clear thinking and focusing on what you need to be focusing on...YOU.  Number 2, it preserves whatever is left of your feelings for him but puts them in a better perspective.  If he is allowed to continue to reject you, etc. it will destroy your feelings for him.  Jim and my going no contact made it possible for us to be friends later on...something not everyone can or should do, but in our case, it was possible because I knew he was mixed up and didn't let what he said get to me or affect me and I had time to get over him before establishing friendship.  We have to get in a healthy place.

Your ex will likely be aggravated at your telling someone about his overdose, but hold true knowing that you are doing what's in his best interest...he may or may not be grateful someday, but you can know you did the right thing.

 

15 hours ago, MartyT said:

I'm so sorry that you find yourself in this position of uncertainty, my dear!

I repeat: Bear in mind that everything you've decided ~ in your most recent posts in this forum, and in the wise responses you've received from other members ~ regarding the extent of your responsibility toward your ex remains true.

I really think you would be wise to talk with your counselor about this again, before you decide to take any action that puts you back in a position of being, feeling, or acting as if you are responsible for this man's self-destructive behavior. No contact means no contact ~ of any kind. Your first obligation in this situation is to take care of YOU.

 

I would recommend taking this advice by KayC and Marty. Clarify with your counselor about her words, because as KayC said NC is best and YOU are NOT responsible for him.

Take care of you first, above all else. You cannot stop or save him from his destructive behavior, and no one, not even a counselor should suggest you try. As stated above, make a responsible friend/family member of his aware of his OD, but do not contact him yourself. Please, disabuse yourself of the notion that you have ANY obligation or responsibility to save him or tolerate his rejection and dangerous, toxic behavior.

I am not sure if you are aware of or follow celebrities, I do not but this story in particular got to me: Ariana Grande was in this same situation with her boyfriend, rapper Mac Miller. He has/had substance abuse problems too and it destroyed their relationship. She finally left him after 2 years because he wrapped his car around a telephone pole while on drugs and fled from police. Ariana got dragged by the media and fans for not sticking by him and "seeing him through his worst."

HER RESPONSE WAS PERFECT! Read below.

--Rae

2 hours ago, kayc said:

Amen to that!  My Jim was confused too, still is.  The best thing I could have done was realize that and shield myself from what were his issues.  

Yep!

He put a lot of time and effort into the relationship and that of her son, perhaps he wishes he hadn't wasted it?  Perhaps not, maybe he really is super-human, but honestly, I wonder how many of us would do all that and not regret it.  I put a lot of years into my first husband too and believe me, I've regretted every second of it, I wish I'd put all that effort into college or a good cause!  (He also drank and did drugs, cheated, beat on me...not worthy of my time)

We have to come to the realization we can't save people.  Nor should we.  We aren't responsible for their inner drowning and there is nothing we can do to help them unless and until they come to the realization themselves that they need help and get it, they need to do it!

Wow.  I can't believe you can still say that.  Are you really that hard on yourself?  I honestly wish you could have a few sessions with a therapist to find out why you are so hard on yourself, why you feel so responsible for others.  That is something for you to get to the root of, to dig down deep into, to uncover and get to the bottom of.  Lord knows I've had my share of counseling in my lifetime!  And needed all of it.

Those two statements in that one sentence are incongruous it seems...HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS.  Period!  Yes grief can feel overwhelming, but to say they have no way of fighting it is to render him helpless to the whims of grief.  Not so!!!!  I have had much grief, I lost my soulmate, husband, best friend, lover, when my George died 13 years ago.  That one thing has impacted my life more than I can say.  I lost my dad when I was young and my mom four years ago.  I've lost countless pets, friends.  I lost my two year old niece and my three year old nephew.  I lost my oldest sister just a few months ago.  None of that serves to excuse bad behavior and choices!  When we choose the behavior, we choose the consequences.  I didn't turn to drinking/drugs.  I didn't hurt other people.  You are still excusing him.  

No.  It's not a different story.  This is indication that this is his chosen coping method.  BIG RED FLAG!  Why would he choose that when he just lost his brother to drugs?!  Does that make sense to you?

There are many ways to deal with our grief, to help us process it, drinking/drugs are not on that list.  At marriagebuilders.com Dr. Harley (founder, author of many marriage books and leading marriage counselor) says we cannot begin to deal with the marriage unless/until the person first deals with their drinking/drugs problem.  Period.  No headway.  You cannot do anything with the relationship where that is a part of it!  It obscures and overpowers everything else.  Now I'm not being judgmental, my own father was an alcoholic, but I'm pragmatic and realize the many problems it caused our family and things I had to come to terms with as an adult.  I would not want a relationship with that in it.  When I got into such a relationship when I was young, I learned so many of these things the hard way and with counseling and barely escaped with my life!  

You think because he hung in there with you in your stubbornness, you should hang in there with his rejection, drinking/drugs, totally different.

I'm not going to argue with you.  Rae has said some very good things to you, I hope you think about them and mull them around, there's a lot of wisdom being given you.  I am serious, if I were you, I would run, not walk, to the nearest counselor and learn what is going on in myself that I'd think I'm responsible for someone else so much so that I fault myself, blame myself, guilt myself.  It would be worth every penny spent in the long run.

True...and from someone who has been there.

EVERYTHING KAYC HAS STATED HERE!

I've experienced loss too, but that did not give me a pass to treat my boyfriend or friends poorly, and I did. I lost my best friend to suicide 9 months after my grandfather died. I have buried pets, friends, family and lost my engagement/relationship of 7 years to infidelity. My dad's biological parents were both abusive alcoholics. My mother's father was too, and her mother was emotionally abusive. That did not give them a free pass to abuse their kids, and they weren't.

Same goes for my exes situation, his father's death was not an excuse to treat me like I didn't matter and wasn't worthy of common decency. He also used it as an excuse to justify his behavior in that he told me if his father hadn't died, we'd still be together. What a load of crap.

Once again, YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DYSFUNCTION OF OTHERS.

Please, go to therapy to find out why you are so hard on yourself. I say this as a person who was in the same boat as you are now with my ex Tim, and as a person who was once in your boyfriends head space (minus the substance abuse). When John killed himself, I was only 20 years old (I am 27 now) and for months I blamed myself because I had thought I was a bad friend, that I didn't hug him or tell him I loved him enough and in doing so, drove myself crazy. My fiance had to force me to get help or break up with me because I left him no other choice. He was not responsible for my behavior then, nor was he responsible for the outcome of my therapy sessions. I had years of unresolved problems stemming from abuse, low self esteem and a myriad of other issues that contributed to my behavior, NONE of which was anyone's fault but mine. Joe stuck around with me as I him when he was less than loveable, but it was not his job to tolerate my rejection, god awful behavior or shoulder my problems and he was in no way to be held responsible for how I behaved. We could not have continued with our relationship had I not gone to therapy and actually tried to get better.