Anticipatory Grief

[Maylissa]

I'd like to start out by thanking Marty for her timely postings under both the Loss of Spouse, etc. forum and the Latest News forum for the helpful writings dealing with what we, the grieving need. Timely for me, because my husband and I were just at a party this past wknd. where I rediscovered, with the same crestfallen feelings as I experienced 2 years ago, that most people still don't want to allow someone ( me, in this case ) to talk about anything even remotely sad or important in their lives. Would that I had the email addy's of everyone there who I tried to talk about these issues with, so that I could send them these writings!

I had had to mention things about our fur-girl's failing condition because it related directly to all the questions of "Where have you two BEEN this year?!", which, had I been allowed, would have led into what's been constantly in my consciousness the past few months...namely, my anticipatory grief over our fur-girl's anticipated passing. But, as is usual, I was stopped short of 'going there'. The closest I got to being allowed to discuss it was one friend focusing on the idea that one shouldn't allow an animal to suffer by keeping them alive too long....NOT the direction I'd wanted to take, thank-you, as I already know how valueless animals' lives are in most people's minds, and with my grief already in full force, I didn't want to end up hearing any terribly-upsetting stories about all the excuses people use to end an animal's life sooner than is needed. So I was forced to divert attention away from this specific 'concern' by assuring this woman that I was monitoring this aspect very carefully and by being so aware of our gal's personal ways that she needn't concern herself with this being the case in our situation. Once anyone heard that our gal was already 19 ( as if it's totally unheard of for any cat to live longer than that ), they dismissed everything else I tried to say as if to say, "Well, what are you 'complaining' about?....she's already really OLD! You should be ECSTATIC that she's lived this long anyway!" So that was bad enough...but then...

....the subject of my Mum's death came up inadvertantly, with another friend who'd actually helped me out once with ideas for trying to retrieve my Mum's china set back from the woman who'd bought it at my father's estate sale ( more like garage sale ). She hadn't called me in over a year and a half, but wanted to know what had ultimately happened and if I had the china set now. To her credit, she still expressed interest in seeing at least a picture of the set ( but no definitive way of getting this to her mentioned - I don't have an email addy for her, even ), but when I mentioned that it was probably ALL I'd ever see of any 'inheritance' ( referring to my continuing struggles with my brother having stolen our parents' money before our father is even dead ), oh NOOOoooooo.......that part wasn't to be talked about! Only focus on the GOOD stuff, the POSITIVE stuff.....NOT the reality of my reality! And then, she seemed more interested in lauding her own praises for the suggestions she'd given me way back when, rather than allowing me to catch her up on the news of what had happened since then, which is still terribly troubling to my soul.....another big, inner <sighhhhhh>....

So NO, we're not 'allowed' to talk about our real, inner lives and how we feel about things. And anticipatory grief is yet another type of grief that no one wants to hear about....or even WRITE about! I've discovered in the last month that there's very little written about this subject, yet, from what little I've found to date, it covers not only the present, but past and future, too, so it's no easy challenge in life! It's NOT an easy type of grief to live and deal with, so I'm discovering. ( Although I experienced some of this with my Mum's illness, I wasn't her caregiver, so this is newer to me. ) I've also been searching for a couple of weeks to find some poetry about anticipatory grief....with NO results at all.....I'd write my own, but poetry's not my forte. And Marty, if you read this post of mine, I'd most certainly welcome anything you might have on this type of grief that I may have missed! ( and maybe we could even use a specific forum on this very subject as for many, the grief journey starts here! )

I don't even know where to begin with how I've been feeling of late, except to say that it DOES feel like living in the past, present and future, all at once.....the more gruesome parts of each, with the better parts only surfacing to remind me of what once was, what is no longer and what will be entirely missing soon. It's debilitating, stressing and taxing...being a caregiver and trying not to distance oneself from one's loved one, yet having to detach to some extent in order to not.....well, feel crazed with grief before someone's even gone! But.....it's another disenfranchised type of grief. As people like to say, "Life's too short to...." stop living it to the fullest even BEFORE you have a 'real' reason.....but they don't understand....

Nice to finally get out, for the first time in months, but only to end up facing the same kind of stresses that I'd had to divest myself of many months ago.....nothing's changed 'out there'.

[Whiteswan]

Yeah, when it comes to grief most people are complete dim wits! And the saddest part of that statement is that I have even found that to be true with a few people in my life who HAVE also experienced grief in their own! They too have seemed to have bought into society's rule of don't talk about it ! I feel for you about your precious cat. I too have lost animals to death in the past and I know full well it is like losing a family member (they ARE family) . Unfortunately most people don't understand that in our society either. My oldest cat is 12 and showing signs of being elderly. Our youngest cat is now 11 months and I really think she gives the older one something to wake up for everyday. He absolutely adores her and he is like a daddy figure for her. Now I just wish our 3 yr old black Lab would love them both too but that is a different story! You're in my prayers as is your baby girl.

[Maylissa]

Whiteswan,

Thanks so much for your understanding...and for noticing my post! This isn't one of the most 'visible' of the forums here , but it seemed like the most appropriate place to put this.

I'm pretty sure we can all say that people are pretty dim-witted about ALL kinds of grief, so this is just another type to add to that already-large-enough list! And it's probably less important to others who aren't going through it because they only think "well, no one's died yet..." So they fail to see it's just as debilitating a process to go through as is the grief that follows ( or continues )after the fact.

That's been the most frustrating part about knowing I'm going through anticipatory grief ~ I need to find a different 'crowd' locally...one more in tune with my interests and who would be much more likely to understand my sorrows, but having little time to get out now ( because of all the caretaking required ), I can't make the time outside the home to FIND these different people, to set up my support network in advance, so I'm left with nothing but internet connections. And the irony is that afterwards, I know I'm not going to be in any shape to go anywhere for some time...except to the local pet loss support group which only meets once/month anyway. Yet I need to get into energy healer groups and the like, who devote their practises to animals...cuz they're the ones who I COULD talk to, from both the perspective of anticipatory grief AND animal loss, without having to feel like an alien on this planet! But having the foresight to know what I need to do doesn't automatically provide me with the means to carry out those steps.

So I'm stuck. I get up every morning, usually with the bitter taste of disturbing dreams in my mouth, and begin caretaking right off the bat, thinking, as I'm getting our gal's morning stuff done, about the shock and horror I'll be experiencing in mornings to come, without anyone but me to do things for...and having to pull myself out of this waking nightmare and try to focus instead on the fact that she's still here and not to 'waste' my time by living in the future. But every morning it's the same...an ongoing battle inside myself. And I'm not a morning person to begin with, so that makes it all the more challenging! And on and on this inner battle goes, right up until I fall asleep at night...and start dreaming again...I'm SO very tired...yet grateful for this time....yet tired...yet grateful....yet tired....

[AnnC]

I can relate to anticipatory grief, since my father has stage 4 cancer, so we know he will not be here all that much longer. But you never know exactly WHEN, so there is this daily going through the motions, going to work and cleaning and cooking and whatever, never knowing when the other shoe will drop. And going to the doctor and hearing that the radiation shrank some spots, but new ones have shown up in other organs. Watching his hair fall out and he gets weaker and sleeps so much, and forgets where he is. It's so hard to concentrate at work. Part of me wishes it were over, and part of me treasures this time, the time that is left. I guess I just keep putting one foot in front of the other, one day at a time. But it's hard, since I am also mourning my former husband's passing two years ago, and another dear friend six months ago. I just feel like I've reached an age where I'm going to be losing more and more people all the time.

[Maylissa]

AnnC,

Yah, that's part of my journey, too...2 major losses 2.5 years ago ( Mum and bro ), and before that of course, losing our gal's brother....just a seemingly endless stream ( plus 3 deaths in my husband's family, too ~ his and mine all within the same year...plus unemployment at the time )....so it's been an incredibly grief-filled 6 years. All that adds up, and with not being able to take any vacation for all that time ( plus many years in a row before that, too ), sometimes I think it's a wonder I'm still standing! And yet people dismiss all that, as if it's all in a 'day's work'. Sure, I've looked at some of the positives through this time, but as even my husband says, there haven't BEEN enough of those to even begin to offset the negatives.

When my Mum was ill and in rehab/hospital, it wasn't the same, even though it was bad enough, as I wasn't there every day, looking after her. Although I wish I'd been able to, I just wasn't ( don't live in the same Province ). But when someone's part of your daily life in such a huge way, there's much to pre-grieve in so many aspects of living. I know I will lose my role as a mom when our girl is gone, and this might never be repeated in my lifetime, as my husband doesn't ever want to get more kidlets.....me, I reserve judgement for much later....but we're already 'at odds' about this point which becomes just another stress to add to the pile. Anyway, that's going to be a HUGE loss, as I'll be losing one of the best parts of myself as well. I've LOVED being a mom to our 2 kidlets....I just love the way I AM when in this mode. I've already lost being able to be a kid myself again, too, as our gal can't really play anymore, and that was a massive stress-reducer in my life! Plus, the majority of my daily laughter was always rooted in our kidlets' antics ( cats are SO amusing, whether they mean to be or not! ), so much of that has gone by the wayside, too.

I'm just terrified...I know too well already that there are probably about half a dozen major ways this is going to change my life, things that I'll be losing, and even though I have plans for what I'll do to fill up my time once I'm able, they don't seem like things that will be as fulfilling as being a mom. This is something that's continually discounted in being an animal's parent....it's so similar to raising human kids, but these kinds of kids NEVER leave home, or 'grow up' to become more independant. I try to tell people who have human kids to try and imagine if their babies never progressed beyond the age of say, 5, and to be taking care of them for all those years in that stage....and then they die. How would they feel then?....but most don't want to even try to empathize....probably because they know it would hurt like h***!

Whiteswan,

I meant to also say before that I, too, have encountered those who also had suffered major losses in their lives, yet they were just as "dim-witted" about extending empathy to me when it was my turn. I can sort of understand how one wouldn't want to go BACK there, but still....I also can't imagine EVER 'forgetting' what it's like and extending support to someone else. It didn't stop ME, after I got more or less through our other furbaby's passing, yet before I lost my Mum and brother, so I don't know what everyone else's excuse is!

And I already feel for you, and your youngest kidlet, for whenever your oldest one has to leave! I guess some of us will also be ending up in the Pet Loss forum eventually as well.

[spela]

Maylissa,

this is the third or fourth time that I'm trying to write here. The answer is so diffucult. You're right, people don't want to talk about anticipatory grief. We don't want to think about it. It's too hard to think about how it is going to be "then". We don't want to believe it can really happen. We know our beloved animals will most likely leave us someday, we know their life will probably be shorter, but we don't want to think about it. I know I don't. So I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you. I know the loss of a dog. Though I was "absolutely sure" I would never again have another dog, I have one now (well, two, including my mom's dog) and I don't want to think about the time when one of them will have to leave me.

[AnnC]

What a terrible time you've had the past 6 years, Maylissa! I'm so sorry. You deserve a long vacation, so does your hubby. I'm not with my dad daily, but we live only a couple of hours apart, and I have been going down more often to see them once or twice a month, and keeping in touch with my mom by phone at least weekly.

I was devastated when my cat died about five years ago. He lived to be 16 1/2, and was so attached to me. I got him when my husband and I got divorced. When he died, it was like my divorce all over again. I felt so abandoned, and then my younger cat would cry all night, looking for him. It was awful. They tear your heart out.

The only thing that sometimes helps me is that I know I would not give up the love to avoid the pain. So I do, when I am ready, get the new kitten. Sometimes that happens really soon, sometimes it takes quite a while. It depends.

But you never forget the ones you lost, people or fur-people. My sister and I were talking about the cat we had who was hit by a car and my dad had to put her down because she was so badly injured. Mind you, this took place about 40 years ago, but in talking about it, we both cried again. Once you love someone, that's forever.

[Maylissa]

spela,

Okay, I had to wryly chuckle ( yup!....heh-heh ) about you saying none of us want to think about these things...even within the process, I don't want to, either! I'm sorry you, too, have suffered the sorrow of losing a fur-child, but I'm glad you're enjoying the companionship of 2 more right now. I know we all try to avoid thinking about death and dying, whether it's about those we love or ourselves, and who can blame us? And of course, in one way, why bring ourselves down ahead of time with depressing thoughts like that? Yet there are those, like Stephen Levine among many others, who 'practise' dying ahead of time, specifically in order to face all those fears, etc. before they're forced to anyway. Kudos to those who are that brave! I can intellectually imagine the benefits of such practise, but I still resist....just as I'm still trying at times to resist the realities of my furgirl's life at present. I've been in this place before, but this time 'round, it feels even worse, because there are so few loved ones even left to me now, after having lost 2 family-of-origin members, my father ( such that he was which was pretty poor ) to his dementia, my last brother to greed and theft, and virtually all relatives but for one aunt ( who actually rather wants to die herself, she's so 'done' with life, though she's only in her early 70's!! ). While I'm thankful I still have my husband, of course, and his parents ( who don't live here, but we talk fairly regularly ), there really is no one else of big import in my life. I'm feeling the winds of change gearing up all around me, and with my unstable family background, I'm not big on change to begin with, much less major change. The Unknown is one big scary monstah to me, as is major grief. And of course, like any parent....I for SURE don't want to lose my daughter!

AnnC,

Thanks for recognizing that we need a big vacation! Ya got that right! That's another thing that's come up...every summer it does for me, but this summer in particular, it's really bad. As soon as it feels like summer, I start fantasizing about being on an actual vacation....just like regular folks ( and all our neighbours! ) take....I've been envious for YEARS! Then my heart sinks cuz I know we can't yet take one. And with the anguish caused by thinking this will probably be our girl's last summer ever, the inner tension about this gets so bad that I feel like jumping in the car yesterday ......then I feel guilty for even having these desires!...even while realizing that the guilty feeling is normal and to be expected, and so I have to overlook it and forgive myself. Then I realize that it's not going to feel like this later anyway, as I'll be in so much PAIN again that I won't even feel like leaving the house, knowing WHY I'll be able to! I DRIVE MYSELF CRAZY with these thoughts!

So you had a pretty elderly cat, too, huh? I'm sorry you, as well, have had to go through that grief ( our boy was only 13 when he passed, from cancer ) and I understand how extra-special those connections are with furkids who were linked to other important events &/or people....just as they are with humans. I'd thought I'd be lucky to have our girl until 16, as one ( stupid ) vet gave her only 2 lousy years, and here it's been 6.5, but no age is a preferred age to lose them. That's partly why I'm so frightened by it all. The grief I suffered over losing her brother was the worst grief I've ever had....and I have NO desire to go there again, even though I survived it for the most part. And I know her passing will be worse than even that. There'll be no beloved kidlet left to comfort me, and our girl did this so immensely well after we lost her brother....she and I propped each other up in our sorrow, and all that extra love we gave each other only served to make each of us fall MORE in love with each other than ever before. It will be one of thoses ironies of ironies.

I do agree ( at least right now ) that it IS better to have shared love with someone than not to have experienced that at all....but I also remember when we lost her brother that I thought of that phrase while in the midst of my fresh grief, and actually couldn't decide if I agreed with it any more. I'm frightened to think I might change my mind about it again. But I like how you put it....."Once you love someone, that's forever." Exactly.

It's comforting to know that others shed tears for their fur-friends, even 40 years later.....that's pretty special . I know I'll be doing the same, although it will be terrible knowing I won't have anyone to share that depth of sorrow with, as my husband never gets teary anymore about our furboy, and he was his daddy and they were darn close to each other! ( sometimes I think my man must be missing some wiring somewhere ) There's been no one else to share in much of our lives with our furkids, since we all moved away from home when they were still fairly young. I think I need my own clone!

[spela]

Maylissa,

I apologize for not being able to express myself the right way. Of course I didn't want to say that, unlike the rest of us, you want to think about the time when your cat dies. Of course none of us want to. What I meant was that most of us are probabla unable to face the reality and unable to accept the CHANCE it can really happen. That's why we avoid the subject. Even now I'm not sure I really explained the reason. I don't know if it can be explained.

I know you've been under a lot of stress, I'm sorry. But you know you can come here and talk to us, if that helps at all?

[Maylissa]

spela,

Don't worry, no apology needed, I got what you were saying. I was being facetious about not wanting to think about it, either...I shoulda put a smilie in there ~ like this ~ ! And thanks....of course I'll be coming here to vent away, just like I'm doing right now! It's so good to have a place where we can express ourselves and get some much-needed support as we sort through, go through, and just plain share!

[STARKISS]

Hi All,

I just want to say that I think that anticipatory grief is one of the worst things I have gone through in my life. The worst thing is the deaths of my parents. I suffered anticipatory grief almost right after my mom died. We found out dad had cancer and it was bad. I was trying to get over my mom's death and now I am dealing with anticipatory grief as well. My dad died four months after my mom. It has been a year since my mom's death and almost a year since dad died. I hope this helps Take care and God Bless Shelley

[Maylissa]

Starkiss( and others here ),

I'm so sorry you, too, had to go through such a scenario. It's tough....real tough, when you know a loved one is dying...although I still think the one good thing about it is it's not a sudden death then....you have some warning. When my brother was suddenly hospitalized only 2 months after our Mum died, I barely had time for even anticipatory grief over him, as the news was so grim right from the start, and I was still suffering shock from our Mum's death. He ended up only worsening on life support for the mere week he was on it...so the plugs were pulled and I never even got to see him again as I'd just flown home barely 3 wks. prior and couldn't afford another plane ticket so soon after....and so I missed his funeral, too.

But with our fur-girl, I've had 6.5 long years of anxiety, fear and caretaking ( with all its attendant emotions, too ) to contend with, which also, of course, overlapped my other 2 losses, so while I'm SOOOO grateful to have had this time so far with our girl ( and any more I might be graciously given! ), at the same time, it's been a very stressful period of my life all-told. Most of the time, I'm just so T..I..R..E..D...and know that I have more of same to 'look forward' to. And along with all this, of necessity I've had to 'isolate' myself more from people and activities, simply because her schedule of meds, food, and other stuff hasn't enabled me to get out of the house for long periods of time at a stretch. So for the most part, we only get to see those very few individuals who are willing to come over, rather than expect us to go to them. ( most of our friends live about an hour away, unfortunately ) So even knowing this isolation isn't good for me, I'm stuck with it anyway. We don't have anyone who could handle her needs to relieve me/us the odd time....I've been searching in vain for any available hospice care for animals here, and can't find even one in these parts, unlike a few States who actually have organizations for that now. Even if Canada had or has a few, this particular Province probably wouldn't, as it's so animal-UNfriendly.

I also remember how completely debilitated and exhausted I was for the month or so that I had to look after our girl's brother, when he was so ill with cancer ( which we didn't know about for the first few weeks - the vets didn't know what was wrong with him at the start )...so I know that with increasing illness as disease worsens, the caretaking only increases. And since I'm already working on a deficit to begin with, I don't even know how I'll be able to hold out during the last while, whenever that's to be. At least with her brother, I'd started out from absolutely normal, rather than from an already tuckered-out state.

And the worst thing about all this is that when you're so tired-out, you can't even BE there or respond in quite the same ways as when you're more refreshed...and I HATE that! Wanting to give the same-old 110% to my girl as I used to, especially in such a critical time for her, and not being able to! I don't want her final days to be diminished in ANY way, shape or form.....she needs her OLD mom to be with her...not this ghost of a mom I feel like I've become.

[MartyT]

My dear Maylissa,

I can feel the exhaustion in your words, and I’m so very sorry that you must endure such endless suffering – not only Nissa’s but your own – as you continue to minister to your precious baby with such boundless love and devotion, knowing all the while that she will not recover. I don’t know how you find the strength to keep on going.

As we’ve come to know you in these forums, we all see how hard you’re working – consciously and deliberately – to contend with Nissa’s illness through this extremely difficult period of anticipatory mourning, and I want to acknowledge and praise you for your efforts. As Therese Rando says, anticipatory mourning is a complex and multidimensional experience that mandates “a delicate balance among the mutually conflicting demands of simultaneously holding onto, letting go of, and drawing closer to the dying loved one” and to the reality of death. What an enormous and complicated task this is! All the while we are ministering to our loved one, we must grapple with overwhelming feelings of powerlessness, uncertainty, confusion and fear. Over time, the stress of it all can deplete us, as it impacts upon every dimension of our existence: cognitive, emotional, physical, social and spiritual. Relationships with others are affected, as we struggle to balance opposing needs, demands and roles within a marriage and amongst our family and friends. Faced with all the traumatizing effects of the terminal illness itself, we’re bombarded with confusing and conflicting feelings of anger, guilt, sorrow, anxiety and fear.

My prayer for you is that, exhausted as you are, you’ll take good care of yourself first, Maylissa. You need to stay healthy enough and preserve enough energy to continue making the most of the time you have left with Nissa, so as to create loving memories and to strengthen the bonds you already have with her. As you know, conscious memory-making involves doing what you’re already doing, but mindfully ~ being present in the moment, and practicing loving thoughtfulness. It means focusing on and engaging in activities that will have personal meaning to you in the present – anything that reflects your love for Nissa and her importance in your life – in order to create warm and healing memories for you in the future. These are the very activities that will best prepare you for Nissa’s eventual death and your adjustment afterward, when her physical presence is no longer here with you.

The irony in all of this, my dear Maylissa, is that you’re already doing your very best in caring for your beloved Nissa, and I think it’s safe to say that your best is better than what many others would be willing to offer under similar circumstances! Have you ever read Martin Scot Kosin’s book, Maya’s First Rose: The Diary of a Very Special Love? I don’t think I’ve ever read a more poignant account of a person’s efforts to keep his beloved companion (in this case, a canine) alive and happy through her final years, no matter what the sacrifices required. You’ll find an excerpt from his beaufiful book here: The Fourth Day.

Meanwhile, know that you are not alone, Maylissa, and with gentle thought and prayer, we are holding you and Nissa in our hearts.

Wishing you peace and healing,

Marty T

[Maylissa]

Dear Marty,

Thank-you so much for that....if you don't mind too much, I'll just collapse in your cyber-arms now and have a good snooze! Since I'm just in the midst of reading Therese Rando's book, I'd already glommed onto that section you quoted above. "Complicated" is right! But it was so good to have someone validate all I've been going through ( both you and Ms. Rando )! As with anything we learn about the processes of grieving, it just helps to know what's common and normal. For me, after reading her description, this meant giving myself more slack ( for the umpteenth time! ) in realizing what enormous pressure there inherently is in anticipatory grief as well. As for actually dealing with it, I know the only place I find the strength is from all the love I have for my gal-pal, even if it's somewhat blurred at times...but I often don't FEEL strong, regardless of carrying on! I've already begun to enlighten my husband about how "I'm not the only one..." who has felt these complicated strains involved in this type of grief, just so he'll know, too, that my tension is to be expected ( while he does lots for our girl, I'm still the primary caregiver to her ).

Although it may sound vain, I have to agree with you that I'm doing more than most would, for my girl....I know it because I've been told by many other truly dedicated, animal-oriented people who also have gone well above and beyond the call of duty for their own beloveds and even for those who don't 'belong' to them. And I'm fiercely proud of this effort, as I consider it to be the single most important and meaningful thing I've ever done in my life....all for my kidlets. ( one of those things that's usually applauded in humans, but is more often derided if applied to animals ) So apparently, I've done very well in that area. Having said that though, I know I'll still struggle at least somewhat with anything I might have missed, later on...and will have to remind myself that it's all part and parcel of my perfectionistic tendencies, plus just normal grief. I do this even now, during this whole ordeal, so I'm already practising for the future!

After reading some reviews for the book you mentioned, I think I'd like it, as the author sounds like he's cut from a similar cloth and if he happens to mention anything I haven't already thought of or done, so much the better....less room for regrets later! I noticed though that it's no longer available new on Amazon, so will have to search for a used copy. So thank-you for that resource, too, as it's one of the animal books I've never even considered before.

You had also mentioned another quote in another thread...."It's never too late to have a happy childhood"....I love that one, too, and intend to use it as much as possible ( if my now-poor memory allows me to remember it! ), especially when I need a break and feel like acting goofy for awhile! This is, however, part of what I've been mourning already, with the much-diminished energy and interest of our girl, as that part of our relationship falls away a little more each month....I'd always used our kidlets' kookiness as one means to keep my Inner Child alive and well. That's why I'm feeling so OLD, for the first time in my life. There's no one to PLAY with much anymore. Hence my future plan to volunteer with the numerous cats ( and other animals, birds, etc. ) my friend has at her shelter once I'm 'child'less. I'm sure I'll be needing them just as much as they need a caring human.

And naturally, one of the ways I'm trying right now to take care of some of my own needs/health is by taking the time to come to this board ( at least while Nissa's sleeping )! It's always a comfort to have someone really care about your health....especially after losing a mother. ( my husband does, too, but he's not as WARM about it as you are! ) You really have learned to be so truly empathetic, Marty.....you're a real gem of a grief counselor, writer and individual and I truly appreciate the time and attention you give us here! And sharing with everyone else has, of course, been invaluable to my progress so far. I think we ALL should have a round of slaps on the backs for all our efforts!

Edited August 8, 2006 by Maylissa

[STARKISS]

Hi Maylissa,

I think that what you said is 100% true without Marty it would not be the same around here. I think that you also deserve phrase as well. Take care and God Bless you Shelley