Sudden Loss

[Kacy]

On February 7th, we suddenly lost our little dog, Lucy, to congestive heart failure. When I say suddenly, it was because she was doing very well and had only been diagnosed two months prior. What I didn't know at the time of her death was that one of the side effects of one of the medications she was being given was "sudden death". She was only 8 years old. Although she was of a breed that did not generally have the longevity of most small dogs due to heart issues, that was still young.

While I have lost other dogs in the past and had a difficult time dealing with their deaths, Lucy's death has hit even harder, in some ways. Our two previous dogs died after many years with us and both had chronic health issues. So in some ways, it was easier to accept that we had to let them go. They were both struggling. It was still very difficult though.

Lucy had had a few difficult days since her diagnosis but seemed to be doing well - eating well and her respirations were normal. She was dancing around for her breakfast that morning, as usual, and ate well. She wanted out about an hour later. She was only outside for about 5 minutes because it was so cold, and then came to the back door. I let her in, and she immediately collapsed on the floor. Within a few minutes time, she was gasping for breath and then died. We rushed her to the vet, but I knew it was too late. They told us she probably died of a ruptured chord in the heart.

While that could have possibly happened without the medication, a ruptured chord was the cause of the side effect of "sudden death". I am having a lot of diffuculty accepting that it was really her time to go. We were never told by the cardiologist about that particular side effect. I questioned giving the medications because I feel like, at times, they create more problems than they solve. But she assured me Lucy needed to be on all 3 medications.

In doing some reading online and comparing Lucy's ultrasound results after her death, I'm finding that her heart itself may have been strong. We knew that the one valve was faulty. According to what I'm reading, the one drug may have not been appropriate because it actually strengthened the heart further, causing the blood to flow more forcefully, and then possibly rupturing the chord.

I just feel so many different emotions - overwhelming sadness, guilt and anger that the cardiologist did not fully explain the side effects. If she would have, I would have proceeded with just the two other drugs (which are ones that vets have used for years in these cases) and not given the new medication that I think caused her death. We could have easily done this, even if just on a trial basis for a few days or weeks to see how Lucy did, and then added the other drug in if absolutely necessary.

I'm finding most people don't really understand why I feel like I do. They keep telling me how lucky Lucy was to have a family that cared about her so much, even if it was only for such a short amount of time (2 years) and that it was just her time to go. I don't feel that way. I just don't know how I'm ever going to resolve these issues when I feel that Lucy's life was cut short thru our own fault and the vet's fault, and it should have never happened. While we all are going with our lives, Lucy's life is over. To make matters worse, she did not have a great life before coming to us, and she was just one of the sweetest dogs you could ever ask for.

I apologize for the length of this post but wanted to explain why I feel like I do.

Thanks.

Kacy

[mfh]

Dear Kacy, I am so sorry. I am a pet lover as are so many of us here and we all know that losing a pet is losing a family member. And this loss is complicated for you because of the questions about the medications. I know we can't compare situations but I do understand how these medications/treatment issues can cause so much confusion and pain. When my husband died 4 years ago, I had questions about his treatment, prescriptions, and my own decisions. I do not think we resolve those questions, we learn to hold onto the pet or person and let go of those questions in time (when we are ready) as they do not tend to have answers. Talking to your vets and researching as you are might bring a better sense of understanding what happened and that may help you to feel better but too much of that might further add to your confusion and pain without benefiting you in anyway. Please hear me, I understand and respect your need for answers and you will know when it is time to stop that search. What answers you might find, can possibly help another pet "owner" someday. Losing Lucy is made more difficult, I KNOW, by not having clarity on the circumstances. Please know my heart reaches out to you in your loss and in your quest for knowledge about "why" Lucy died. Others will respond to you also so please check in again and again. We are here to support you and listen. You did your very best for Lucy and it is so important for you to absorb that truth. Peace, Mary

[kayc]

I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved Lucy. Sometimes there seems to be no resounding answers as the the "why", life seems rather random to me. I feel the fault, if any, lays with the vet, as the trained professional, at the very least she could have given you all of the information you needed to make an informed decision. We can't expect to know what they have had medical education for, that is why we pay and trust them. Have you asked the vet about your findings and if so, has she addressed it?

People do say inappropriate things in an effort to try to make you feel better...sometimes it falls flat because they don't understand what you're going through. I've learned that there is no way I can make someone understand what they haven't been through, so I just let their remarks come...and go.

I'm glad you found this site, it has been of immense help to me in my grief/losses.

I hope in the months to come you can find some peace.

[Kacy]

Mary and KayC,

Thank you both for responding to my post. It's helpful to have others that seem to understand what I am going thru right now with Lucy's death. Friday will be two weeks since her death and, as you probably know, many friends at that point will probably feel that I should be over losing her. So, it's good to have a place where people understand.

Since I have other dogs of this same breed, that is known to have a high rate of heart disease, I feel that I have to get answers to some of my questions. When I reach the point that I feel like I have those answers, I am going to speak with my regular vet (not the cardiologist) to let her know my findings and how I will proceed in the event another one of my dogs goes into congestive heart failure.

I do agree that at some point I'm going to have to accept that this happened, and whether any of us were at fault or not, the outcome now is the same. While the pain of losing Lucy will lessen a bit over time, I don't feel that the guilt will and I will have to accept that also.

Thank you again.

Kacy

[mfh]

Kacy, a wise decision to research this in view of your other dogs. Good thinking. I do believe we get through what we call guilt because in reality you are not guilty of anything and eventually we come to know that. You intended only good things for your furbaby. You did your best though it does not feel like that right now. I am glad you are here to share. Peace, Mary

[kayc]

Feelings of guilt are common in grief, but we can get past it.

[rebbyreb99]

Kacy,

First of all, I am so sorry for your loss. There is nothing that anybody can say or do for you to make this better right now. I hope that I can at least give you some peace. I lost my little girl 3 years ago tomorrow, 3/3/11 to what supposedly was liver disease. I too felt that at the time, I contributed to my little girl's death because I believed what the vet said was gold. How after reading about all the drugs that little girl was getting, there is no way she would survive. It was enough drugs to kill a horse and here she was a 10 lb jack russell. It took me quite a long time to get over guilt and anger that I was feeling towards the vet and then myself. I now have forgiven myself since there is no way that I could have known for sure what was too much and when to say stop. We are only human and therefore we make mistakes. Some mistakes are so much harder to swallow but mistakes never the less. 3 years later even though I miss her a whole bunch, I am now at peace with what happened.. I now help rescue shelters with time and money in my attempt to honor her short lived life. I now make sure that I read everything that goes into my dogs' diets or what health preventions are used on them. On the death of her anniversary, I go to this site to see if there are others that I can help console or at least give some peace.

it has been a few weeks for you since your baby died so maybe you are at a place that you are not angry anymore or at least not as much. If not, I hope that with this site, you may mend sooner with the help of those who have gone through this as you are now.

God bless

rebbyreb

[Kacy]

rebbyreb,

I want to thank you so much for your post. I read it early this morning when I got out of bed because I couldn't sleep. I have a little candle by Lucy's picture on my desk by the computer, and I always light that first thing when it is still dark outside. This morning, it is a little memorial to both Lucy and your little Jack Russell on the anniversary of her death. It is so thoughtful of you to think of others on this day and such a tribute to her.

As far as coming to peace with Lucy's death, I have not been able to do that. I had to take one of my other dogs in for his checkup last week and had a long talk with our regular vet (not the vet who prescribed the medication that I am questioning, but who agreed that it should have been given). I expressed my concerns about the medication and she promised to look into the questions I had with it. I know that the drug has helped other dogs, but I do feel that it should not have been given to Lucy.

I agree that we need to question our vets before just giving everything they prescribe. Some people are not comfortable doing that, but I learned long ago that sometimes these medications cause more harm than good. I did question the cardiologist about the 3 drugs she prescribed because I'm basically afraid of all of them. But she assured me that Lucy needed all three. I was afraid to give them and afraid not to give them.

When I looked online afterwards, all I was finding was glowing reviews on the medication - until after her death. It would be impossible to prove that the medication caused her death because dogs with cardiac disease can die suddenly, but due to Lucy's past issues that relate to immune system problems, I think it was just way too powerful for her. That's where I disagree with traditional vets. Everything seems to be cut and dried. With a holistic vet, they will look at other issues and past problems and go from there.

I find that regular vets are sometimes set in their ways and not willing to change or see things differently. Some are still pushing the annual vaccines, and some people go along with that without question. I do think we need to educate ourselves and then make our decision based on that. But I have gotten way off the subject here, and I apologize for that.

Thank you again for your kindness and support. I truly appreciate it. Please know that others are sharing your pain today also.

Kacy

[rebbyreb99]

Kacy,

You and I have a lot of things in common. I did find a vet clinic who believes in traditional as well as homeopathic medicines. There are no more vaccinations for my animals and as far as rabies go? I am still pushing the time table on what they say we should get them for our animals. Not a chance that they will go under 7 years though. The clinic that I found feels the same way as I do on when vaccinations are to be given. I am not sure if the traditional vets are pushing the vaccines for money or because they still believe they are needed. With the previous veterinarian, i was getting emails, regular mail and phone calls to remind me that they need their vaccinations every year. This is when I decided no more and I got on the internet and educate myself.

I now make a point to tell my friends who have animals that are vaccinating every year that they really need to educate themselves as to what they are doing. They do it out of love for their animals because that is what we are taught right? The professionals are steering us right, right? I do not even vaccinate myself with the flu shot, shingles shot, etc., so why would I do this to my animals?

As you can tell by this reply, I have become quite passionate about what we do with our pets. I guess my point Kacy is that the anger and guilt will go away and knowledge can replace it. It took so much out of me to think I helped kill my little girl. I hope you find what you need to give you peace. There is not one single day that goes by that I do not think of my Katie. I block out any thing now that takes away my peace. If any guilt or anger starts filtrating my mind, I shut it down right then.

rebbyreb

[MartyT]

Your conversation reminds me of a post that appeared yesterday on a blog I follow: Clients I Wish I Could Clone.

You may be familiar with her already, but if not, I invite you to read some of the other articles written by veterinarian Dr. Nancy Kay, author of Speaking for Spot and Your Dog's Best Health.

She writes informative pieces regularly for her blog as well. See, for example, Vaccinations for Your Dog: A Complex Issue and Reasonable Expectations VII: Discussion and Open-Mindedness About Your Dog’s Vaccinations

[mfh]

Here is another good resource on integrative pet care: Dr. Karen Becker

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/dr-karen-becker.aspx

And an outstanding source of information about food is www.DogFoodAdvisor.com

You can sign up for the warning and recalls about food here also.

At that site is a link to a series of videos by Dr. Karen Becker dog food, dog food allergies and more.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/?s=karen+becker

You have come to a place filled with people who love pets.

[Kacy]

Thank you, Mary and Marty for sharing the links. The sad part is, I have Dr. Kay's book (one of about 20 books on natural healthcare for animals) and also subscribe to an online newletter from Dr. Becker and have read many of her articles. I think that's why I feel so guilty. I should have known better. Not that I'm an expert by any means, but I'm way past feeling good about taking my dogs to the vet to get their "necessary" annual vaccinations or giving meds prescribed by them. I think the saying "ignorance is bliss" applies in this case.

rebbyreb, I'm so glad you found a vet you are comfortable with. It's very hard to find one who balances both traditional medicine and holistic medicine without going too far either way. I truly love my regular vet (not the one who prescribed the meds for Lucy), but she is a traditional vet so believes in traditional meds. She is not against alternative treatments at all - just concerned about how they will work with the medications she is prescribing. I can't fault her on that. I had planned to take Lucy to a holistic vet as soon as we recovered from the expense of two visits with the cardiologist and several with our regular vet. We were just getting to that point when she died.

Without going into Lucy's whole history, I was so upset when I re-read the paperwork we got from the rescue group when we adopted her two years ago. I had looked over them a few times before, but apparently it didn't all sink in. Lucy was an owner surrender and had a terrible skin condition that the vet thought was mange. She was started on ivermectin within a few days of coming into the rescue, which is the traditional treatment for mange, and also an antiobiotic. One month later, she was put under anethesia for a dental (had 4 teeth pulled), put on a pain medication (Rimadyl, which is controversial itself), given her rabies vaccine, her distemper/parvo vaccine and a vaccine for leptospirosis (which is vaccine known to cause side effects and, even more importantly, is controverisal about whether it is even needed or not unless a dog is around water a lot - hunting, hiking, etc.). That was all done in the same day.

It's almost like the cards were stacked against Lucy. First an owner that didn't take care of her and allowed her to be get into a terrible condition, then being blasted with traditional medications when her immune system was totally shot and having to work her way out of that, and then being hit with the heart disease and treated traditionally for that. That's an awful lot for a little 16 lb dog.

I'm still waiting to hear back from my regular vet about my questions regarding the one medication. I'm also trying to decide what holistic vet I will use for my other 3 dogs so that some good comes out of all of this. But I can't get past thinking this it all at Lucy's expense.

Thank you all again.

Kacy

[rebbyreb99]

Kacy,

You have to quit beating yourself up. We can not change what has happened but we can learn about what to do next time. That is not doing it at Lucy's expense. That is just becoming more knowledgeable. I also read a lot of Dr. Becker's articles. I think there is a site on her's that helps you find a holistic vet in your area. I am not sure but I think that is where I found my current vet. This vet is not close at all to my home but at this point I am willing to travel to find a good one.

You are right about all the procedures they did while Lucy's immunity was compromised. We are in dire need of these rescue shelters because of the idiots who own pets that shouldn't. Unfortunately they have limited resources and manpower and time in order to deal with some animals who come in such as Lucy with so many things going on. Their goal is to find a good home for the unwanted.

I can just tell that Lucy was very, very lucky to have had you in her life. I know that dog felt love and they don't harbor anger, grief from the past like we humans do. She was in the moment and that moment was a loving human taking care of her. Just keep that in your mind ok?

[Kacy]

rebbyreb99,

Actually, Lucy was not in a shelter. She was turned into a rescue group by the owner and was in a foster home. I wasn't really trying to find fault with the rescue group, although it would be wonderful if they were a little more up to date with the effects of all of these vaccinations and treatments and at least would not allow multiple vaccinations to be given at one time - especially to a sick dog. I really do feel that the vet in this case should have known better. That was really my point.

I think Lucy knew she was loved. I told her every day!

Kacy

[Maylissa]

Kacy and rebbyreb,

Though it may be a little more awkward to follow, I'll reply to you both within the same post.

I'm so pleased to see you both have taken on re-educating yourselves on true "health" care for your furbabies, as opposed to blindly following the "sick," or just "dis-ease management," care system by which we've all been led so astray throughout our lifetimes (and much further back). The passion that arises from either tragedy or even simply fear (another wise teaching-feeling) that you speak of, rebby, is what helped fuel my own path as well. And I'm glad to see it is finally being shared more and more by others...particularly in the companion animal category, since animals (but all of them) are my main passion in life.

I'm also familiar with Dr. Becker and several other well-known vets/authors, one of whom, happily, later became my furdaughter's primary, distance, homeopathic vet. Along with our formerly-primary, local, integrative vet (who practised several alternative modalities herself), and a few allopathic specialists (as needed) in my furgirl's final months, we were able to extend her life by another 6.5 years after she became so immediately ill (due to her intense grief) after we suddenly lost her beloved brother. If I'd been mainly using allopathic means instead, I'm quite certain we would have lost her, too, within mere weeks or months instead. So I agree with much of what you both have shared, and thank you for doing that.

Kacy, I know you're looking for a "holistic" vet, and I know how difficult it can be to find just the right one who fits the bill as closely as possible. Considering how challenging that search can be as yet, another option you might consider, which it seems you've actually already done in part -- is having a "team" of vets to work with, with one deemed as "primary," and your local, allopathic vet as back-up for any needed tests, physical exams, etc. That is what I ended up doing, using our (distance) homeopathic vet as primary, and who also often proscribed certain herbals, proper nutritional advice of course, and other natural aids as required, some of which I could also run past our local integrative vet if I chose, following discussion with him. Overall, this worked pretty well for me, aside from the 45 min. drive required to see our local vet when needed. My distance (phone) sessions with her homeopath were very productive as well as easy on my her, since she seldom had to be subjected to any clinic visits (except during her final months). If you'd even like to consider using our own homeopathic vet (who lives in the US & also now utilizes Skype for calls), you can PM me for his contact info, and discuss things with him to see if you might like him and his methods. I also know of another homeopathic vet whose fees are very competitive, although I don't personally agree with the particular way she practises homeopathy (i.e. it's not exactly "classical" from what I can tell), so while I can't personally recommend her, I do know she has helped another friend of mine with her own animals. (she can also work by phone or email)

You're certainly right about Lucy having been subjected to far too many drugs & vaccines, and in such insanely short order, but as sad as that is, it was not your doing, and it may also speak to Lucy's underlying, personal constitution, for all anyone knows. While it's true that at least some, if not all(?), of that damage could have potentially been reversed through classical, constitutional homeopathy &/or other 'alternative' methods, the fact is, you simply didn't have anyone at the time who could help you with that. So you had to work with what you had. And when you say "apparently it didn't all sink in," I'm suspecting that was because upon her adoption, you were full of HOPE, relief, and whatever else, that now she'd be in better hands, as she was! This is always the problem with hindsight, of course...it's only a great teacher afterwards. But I know most of us do beat ourselves up, regardless of the futility of it, at least until we can work through more issues within. Personally, I consider this a common and often necessary part of the process, though, as it can help us dig and sift through any inner issues we need to unearth within ourselves. In other words, this part of grief, too, can serve an important purpose.

But if at any point you'd like to consider additional help in getting through &/or eliminating the guilt, as you may already know, there are now plenty of energetic methods out there (some which you can learn to do on your own) that may be of use to you, like EFT, TAT, hypnosis, or any other energetic &/or frequency-based systems that have the potential to vastly shift your thoughts, emotions and beliefs. (I practise one of them myself) I've always been a proponent, too, of utlizing flower essences (FEs) along with any other method, or just by themselves. There are a few blends that are geared specifically toward grief and its common issues. (you can ask me about the ones/brands I'd recommend, if you wish)

And rebby's right about current mainstream protocols practised in most shelters; not something we can change overnight, unfortunately. That entire, old paradigm is changing however, so perhaps in the future we won't be faced with such disparities in thinking, or their ill effects.

I do have to disagree though, rebby, with the generalized notion that animals never harbour &/or store negative feelings (anger, grief, etc.) towards others or about certain events in their earthly lives. My own furchildren proved that to me themselves (e.g. my furgirl's own grief, even if she was only or partly "mirroring" my own sorrow), as have other animals I've heard about or worked with since. (think, too, about those animals who just "have it in for" other particular animals, or who've stored memories containing fear of vets/clinics/objects/genders of humans, etc.) It is often such traumas &/or other influences that lead to dis-ease, including in nonhumans. Their souls (and "personalities") are just as richly complex and deep as any others are, although most are certainly more loving and still more closely-connected to the Divine than most humans have become.

That said though, "blaming" doesn't normally happen with those they've loved, or who have loved them and haven't deliberately mistreated them....yet even then, there are individual exceptions where even under the most horrific abuse, their Higher Selves harbour no resentment towards their abuser if such events played a part in their own soul's evolution, or their own karma. (just wanted to put all this out there for anyone's consideration)

But I certainly DO agree that with Lucy and Kacy, I can't even imagine there would be any blame laid, when Kacy's intentions were based on so much love and concern for her girl! And there's everything right about striving to focus on and acknowledge the positive aspects as we mourn...or anytime. But we also need the space and to give ourselves permission to grieve and allow all the crappy feelings a voice, too...else, we'll just bury them deeper down and cause ourselves that much more harm.

As for this being "all at Lucy's expense," I think I understand how that feels. At one point, I had much anger toward the "universe" for seemingly having "subjected" particularly my boy (since he crossed first, and suffered more as well) to what he went through (before I knew as much as I learned after, and learned because of his physical death), so I could learn from it. That struck me as a grossly unfair and unloving spiritual system or principle!! How dare the universe 'use' him as some kind of 'test subject' for my growth???!!! At least, that's how I initially reacted to the whole idea. That was until I acknowledged, tough as it was during the throes of grief, that these challenges weren't "all about ME," and neither was my boy's physical death. As a soul, too, he had his own spiritual path to follow, and I had to consider that perhaps his shorter lifespan (this time around, as I believe reincarnation is real) was what he'd chosen for himself, even if that meant he was to be "taken away from me" too soon for my, or even his, liking, once we'd fallen so deeply in love with each other and had shared so MUCH, and on so many levels.

That perspective actually lasted quite awhile for me, until "life" played out as it did, and in retrospect/hindsight I realized he'd once again acted as our "Leader," and had paved the way for his sister's even better care. (he loved her, too, mightily) Not only that though, and again in retrospect, after she'd passed too, I realized I'd actually needed pretty much exactly those 6.5 years with her alone, in order to 'prepare' myself 'enough' for letting her go and surviving her death. My beloved boy was/is a very wise and seasoned soul. And I'm convinced we ALL agreed to this timeframe in advance and as a soul family, for each other's Bigger Picture benefit. However, it also turned out that it was actually my girl who really "arranged" for our reunion as a soul family, in her subtler but equally-deep own way. Still, her brother had to "clinch the deal" (at their adoption) for this plan to work out, and we all worked together as a team....with me being the most ignorant of the bunch for a few years! Whether you believe any of this or not, for me, my own soul just feels and knows it as true, and that became how I found some deeper comfort about their losses. But it took some "unfolding" over time, some introspection, and other experiences for me to recognize it all and be able to even see this bigger picture. I've also experienced some other Divine Timing instances in my life, too, but this one contained the largest tapestry of all to date, and was also the most meaningful for me.

I do hope some of this may help you during your own grief, and I do think you're doing so much already that will serve you well. It can be a long process for many of us, full of ups and downs, but overall perseverence and commitment to progress, no matter at what speed, is what's key...and I think you have that within you, Kacy. One step, one moment at a time...

(sorry for the 2-posts-in-one & hope it wasn't confusing!)

Blessings,

Maylissa

[rebbyreb99]

Kacy,

I definitely do not want you to think that I thought you were being critical on rescue shelters. My comment on the rescue shelters was a personal observation with the rescue shelters that I have contact with. One particular individual who has a rescue shelter works a 40 hour plus job and then goes to one of the major pet stores every Saturday for adoptions. I have personally seen people come to the site and tell her that they found this dog and can she take them? She does not even think twice about it and says yes. Other rescue shelters have a process in taking abandoned animals. She has to address the situation as far as any medical issues that animal has and relies on that vet to do what they can. She does not have the money or resources that can back her to take one issue at time. I know she would love to take the time for each individual animal to get personal care but with the way that people throw away their animals when they are an inconvenience, there are too many of them.

Maylissa, I know what you are saying about animals not holding on to the past. I guess my point was to Kacy is that in my opinion, they do not harbor anger like humans do. Lucy felt love and she did not think that Kacy was hurting her.

I hope that you and Kacy will be able to find a holistic vet for Kacy's babies. I can not tell you how wonderful it is to find someone who has the same belief system.

[rebbyreb99]

I also subscribe to this site:

dogsnaturallymagazine.com

Right now they are asking people to petition about the dangers of rabies vaccinations to animals and not requiring that a vaccination be at least 3 years. They would like to see this pushed out at least every 5 years if not every 7 years.

I hope that you will go to this site, read the article and sign the petition. This is a small way to help educate people.

[mfh]

DogsNaturally.com is a helpful site. My vet said the day is not far off when Rabies shots will be 5 or 7 years but legally he is bound to do 3 year injections and thinks the same shot is good for much longer.

This whole thing of injections is so frustrating. I questioned my vet about the titer test (a bloo test to tell whether or not the dog IS protected and therefore does not need the shot. He said the titer test could show that the dog is protected but no one knows whether that protection is for a day or a year. One gets going in circles. The only answer, I see, is a vet who is totally committed to natural and traditional treatment and who will only inject if essential.

[Kacy]

rebbyreb99,

No, I didn't take it that you thought I was being critical on shelter. I just wanted to explain that Lucy was never in a shelter. She was with a breed specific, national rescue that actually raised money on their website specifically for her treatment. They are a wonderful group and I'm not trying to find fault with them, but I do feel that the vet should not have vaccinated Lucy when she was already dealing with the mange issue. Vaccines are not for sick animals. They are only to be given to healthy animals - but most vets overlook that and give them anyway.

My own regular vet probably would have done the same thing in that same situation. The only difference would have been that I would have told her I didn't want all the vaccinations at that time and the lepto vaccine, I would never give at any time. Most people just let the vets give whatever is standard or whatever they've decided to add to the standard set of vaccines. But I know with my vet, if I had a puppy or a dog that had never had the vaccines and I took them for their shots, I would just say I will bring the dog back in a few weeks or a month or so, so we can divide these shots up and not given them all at once. My vet would not charge an office visit for the second appt because there would be no examination involved. So, while it's inconvenient to have to go back to the vet again, to me it's worth it.

Mary, I think maybe we've met in another life! Everything you and Marty write about are things that are near and dear to me. I actually started getting Dogs Naturally magazine a year ago - the real, old fashion paper magazine that comes in the mail! It was on my Christmas list two years in a row, and my son bought it for me. I have had dogs titered in the past - sending the bloodwork to Dr. Dodds in California (who is running the rabies challenge). My husband and I actually met her several years back when she gave a talk at the boarding facility we sometimes use for our dogs. She is not only a vet but also a human immunologist - so is slightly on the brilliant side!

I also get emails from Dogs Naturally and see the one this time was on rabies miasm. Apparently, I have a special talent for finding dogs with problems that other people never encounter. We adopted an English Setter almost 3 years ago from a local shelter. He was only a year old. We really debated because he was much younger than I really wanted, but was afraid some idiot would adopt him and only use him for hunting (there actually was someone there looking at him when we were there). So, we adopted him. We have had other ES and know they are an active breed. He got his rabies the day before we picked him up. Right from the start, he seemed kind of extra goofy - chasing his shadow or leaves falling off of trees, etc. But he was young, so I just overlooked it. A year later, it was time for the 3 yr rabies shot (which I've been told is exactly the same as the 1 yr shot but that's the way they do things here). Had the vet give the shot during his checkup.

Within a few days (can't remember exactly because it wasn't anything we were watching for), he started acting REALLY goofy. He would act like he was seeing things on the wall. My husband and I would be sitting on the couch and he would literally run from one end of the couch to the other, looking at the wall behind the couch like there was something there - but there wasn't. Then, he started noticing any light reflections - the ceiling fan, light reflecting onto the ceiling off of the chrome on my dishwasher, someone's cellphone reflecting light. It was crazy. I still didn't put two and two together. I tried using a trainer to teach him to settle down, but she suggested a veterinary behaviorist when she saw his behavior. So, off we went - only to be told he probably needed Prozac. Didn't want to do that so tried various herbs. Finally found one that helped a little. Started searching online - still not thinking of the rabies shot until I happened to email someone for information and described his symptoms, and they said rabies miasm. Again, no way to prove but when I read up on rabies miasm, including the email about it from Dogs Naturally, I was seeing many of Connor's symptoms. We also took him to two holistic vets and kept him on two different supplements (with an okay from both that it was okay to use together) up until a few months ago. One of the vets gave him a homeopathic remedy specifically for rabies miasm also. I still will see crazy behaviors in him, but we have just learned to live with them.

I know we are getting off the path here, but I wanted to at least make those comments. At this point for my dogs, I only give rabies and that's because it's the law. I don't board my dogs (except occassionally Connor) and my groomer knows my dogs and doesn't care that they aren't up to date on their vaccines. So. there is no reason for me to have them vaccinated. I doubt they are going to get distemper or parvo since they've already been vaccinated several times for both. My vet's office does not pester me about the vaccine, but generally mention when we're there that they are due and I just say "I don't do those anymore".

Kacy

[mfh]

Kacy,

Yes, Marty and I both speak dog language along with many others on this site. I believe just as we are starting, in our society, to challenge traditional medicine in terms of acceptable treatment for cancer and other dis-eases, we dog and cat lovers are also starting to look hard at what we do for our pets. I do the vaccine for boarding as my kennel will not accept dogs without it but since he is rarely boarded I wait until I need to do that instead of doing it regularly. It is all a maze which we pet lovers have to traverse carefully and we must examine the brain washing that we have all been subjected to in this Rx culture.

Good for you for taking such cautions.

Mary

[kayc]

Thank you for the good information, I'm sorry you went through that with your English Setter. It does make one wonder. Here we have to have rabies every three years in order to renew our dog license. They can literally go door to door and check if you have your dogs up to date so I have no choice but to get rabies shots for my dog. Plus, I live in the country and if he were ever to get loose...there are a lot of wild animals around, including bats.

My cat is a house cat and has never been to the vet. She is 18 1/2 and in great health. She is very active, runs, plays, it's amazing. She was about ten when I found her abandoned in a trailer court...the manager said she'd always lived there but had many owners. Taking her in and promising her I'd keep her the rest of her life, if I felt she needed anything, I'd take her to the vet, but she's never been to one, and I don't see the point. My other cat has her shots but she goes outside as she desires.

[Maylissa]

DogsNaturally.com is a helpful site. My vet said the day is not far off when Rabies shots will be 5 or 7 years but legally he is bound to do 3 year injections and thinks the same shot is good for much longer.

This whole thing of injections is so frustrating. I questioned my vet about the titer test (a bloo test to tell whether or not the dog IS protected and therefore does not need the shot. He said the titer test could show that the dog is protected but no one knows whether that protection is for a day or a year. One gets going in circles. The only answer, I see, is a vet who is totally committed to natural and traditional treatment and who will only inject if essential.

Mary, you might also be interested to know there are homeopathic means that address animals who've been vaccinated, involving using specific homeopathic remedies immediately following vaccines being given/foisted upon them, which helps mitigate their damaging effects. (I never call them "side-effects" anymore, as that's actually a misnomer) **this should, of course, only be done in the hands of an experienced Doctor of Veterinary Homeopathy...and not just one who's added homeopathy to their roster w/o proper, years-long training**

I believe an even better answer is to actively fight back for the return of our rights to choose on behalf of our cherished animals, and to protect them (and ourselves) from the contrived and hidden reasons for pushing dangerous and unnecessary vaccines, for instance, through that initiative rebby mentioned earlier &/or whatever else might help. These laws absolutely need to be changed. I learned almost 2 decades ago now about the dangers of vaccines, and how they came from a corrupt system, in addition to how most will last an animal's entire lifetime, besides. As with almost everything in this world now, if you just "follow the money," much becomes crystal clear.

I even recall another woman (in the US) who was well-informed, and ended up very assertively using the medical inserts vaccines are packaged with -- the ones that clearly state, right from these manufacturers, that NO animal who is ill or otherwise compromised in their health, is to be given vaccines (just as Kacy has already mentioned, I believe) -- to thwart her vet's attempt to force her into re-dosing with rabies vaccine. She then made her vet sign a paper giving her this health "leave" that she could use for any officers of the law coming to her door demanding she get her animals vaccinated for rabies. It worked for her, and although I know that some States now don't even allow such "leave," I'd suggest that if thousands of people were doing the same thing, the political pressure would mount and we might actually see enough of a push-back to effect this needed change fast. And if enough states enact such changes, the rest are more likely to follow. For those States that do still allow such medical "leave," think about it....how many animals these days are even totally healthy anymore anyway?...leaving this tactic wide open in many cases for use at present. How deliciously ironic would it be, to use the very results (sickness from vaccines themselves &/or ruined food systems, environments, etc.) of this madness, in order to reverse it? As they say, the answer lies right within the question, no?

For just one of many enlightening articles on the whole rabies scam, written by yet another independent-thinking DVM, please see:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/froghollerfilas/VaccRabiesFudens.html