Nothing Out There For Me

[MartyT]

Maylissa, you said,

I guess I really should have started a separate thread here for all this, but I didn't even think about it at the time! Sorry, all! (maybe Marty can move this to a more appropriate place....)

I've placed your most recent posts (along with responses you've received) under a new topic entitled "Nothing Out There for Me." If you prefer a different title, just let me know and I will change it.

[Maylissa]

Wish these kinds of retreats were also held in Canada (have never heard of a psychic-based one here). Also wish there was a psychic/medium type forum for fur-child loss. I read a few threads of the forum while I was there, and noticed how much more acceptable/normal it was for mothers to not even move a thing of their child's for over at least a year afterwards. So I still relate more to the grief of human child loss than to anything else. Among the wiser souls who are dealing with child loss, you don't see any of them pushing anyone to either start feeling better after ONLY one year, nor busily adopting other children to help fill in their emptiness.....yup, I'm more like them, yet there's nothing like that out there for people like me.

[MartyT]

Maylissa, dear,

As one who’s loved and lost both a human baby and a furry canine one, I can tell you that there was a time when there was “nothing like that out there for people like me” either. In 1966, when my baby David died unexpectedly after an uneventful pregnancy at the age of three days, the world as I knew it (and as I expected it to be) was suddenly shattered, and everyone in my corner of the world (except my husband) acted as if nothing of much consequence had happened. No one at home or at work or among my dearest friends would talk with me about it at all. I had no place to take my sorrow; back then there were no grief counselors, no grief support groups, not even articles or books about the grief that accompanies the death of an infant, and certainly no Internet with Web sites and forums aimed at grieving mothers.

When my precious little dog Muffin died twenty years later, I was absolutely devastated. Once again, very few people in my world (except my husband and two sons) even noticed (much less acknowledged) the depth of my grief or the significance of my loss. Many of my friends and closest family members were simply mystified that the death of my dog had affected me so profoundly. Once again, I found myself with no place to take my grief. In 1986 there were no such things as grief counselors specializing in pet loss, no pet loss support groups, and precious little was even known, much less published in the literature, about the human-animal bond and the grief surrounding the death of a cherished animal companion.

But now, twenty more years later, look how far we’ve come, Maylissa! Over the years I’ve learned that it takes a lot of perseverance, passionate commitment, friendly persuasion and a willingness to inform and gently educate others, first to bring matters like this into people’s consciousness, and then to advocate for the kinds of changes that are required. This very Web site is sponsored by one of the finest hospices in the country, and it includes a forum for Loss of a Pet. My hospice is one of a very few nationwide that offers, in addition to all its other grief support groups, a support group for bereaved animal lovers. None of that happened without a lot of patience, education, friendly persuasion, and preparatory work, but the end result is an acknowledgment that the death of a pet is just as worthy of grief support as the death of any other loved one, and I am very proud of that.

We in the grief field used to think that in order to heal, the bereaved had to give up all emotional ties to their deceased loved ones. It’s only been in the last ten years or so that we’ve begun to acknowledge how natural and how important it is to develop and maintain continuing bonds with our deceased loved ones. Now, as you point out in your IADC post, some grief therapists are discovering even more dramatic ways to help people connect with those who have died through induced after-death communication within their therapy sessions. I can remember the days when the topic of ADCs wasn’t even considered worthy of discussion among so-called intelligent people, much less practiced by professional grief counselors! We are making progress, and I think that is something to be acknowledged and celebrated.

There is a saying I like, If it is meant to be, it is up to me. Maybe one day you will be the one to suggest or help to pull together the people who could offer “a psychic-based retreat in Canada,” Maylissa, or you will be the person who will start “a psychic/medium type forum for fur-child loss” on the Internet. When my baby David died over 40 years ago, I had no idea what would become of me or where my grief would take me, and I didn’t know what would happen to me after Muffin died, either ~ but today, looking back on each of those life-altering events, I can say without a doubt that I if it had not been for those two major losses and the effects they had on me, I would not be doing what I’m doing today. It’s not so much what happens to us in life that matters; it’s what we do with what happens to us that really makes a difference in this world ~ and each and every one of us is capable of making a difference, no matter how small or how dramatic.

There is another Biblical saying that I love, Maylissa: It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. We can exhaust ourselves lamenting the fact that “there is nothing like that out there for people like me,” or we can harness and channel our energy and set about to find a way to make it happen for ourselves and for others. I believe with all my heart that right now you are in the process of finding meaning in your losses. You are searching for your own light, your own mission, your own purpose ~ and there is no doubt in my mind that one day you will find it. In fact, you’re already shining a great deal of your light on the rest of us, right here on this Web site, every time you post and share your experience, your compassion, your caring, and your expertise with the rest of us. That also is something that I acknowledge and celebrate.

[Maylissa]

Yah, you're right, Marty, and I know it. It's just not been long enough yet...or more correctly, my grief work hasn't come far enough yet for me to BE in a place yet where I can actualize more of those improvements. I'm simply frustrated and lamenting about it because naturally, I'd much prefer that they were already a reality, so that I could easily take full advantage of them all! I do have hope that someday, they will be commonly available....but I also might be 80 before that happens! (if I live that long)

You've told me much of this story before, I know, and I'm sorry, too, that you had to suffer through even BIGGER voids in understanding or available care for your grief. VERY, VERY sorry, really! If it feels this bad to me, with the advances since that time, well....I can't even imagine, frankly, what you (and others) had to endure. And I also know how it works - if not for the pain you did endure, and learned so much from, you wouldn't have taken the path you did, and WE would not be here now to benefit from the fabulous resources you've provided to us and many others! So yes, I allow that this may be part of MY future path and that this may give me another purpose to live and find meaning in my existence....eventually. I also know that it's a griever's natural impatience to want to already be farther along, when it comes to wanting what we want, right NOW.

I knew all this even as I wrote what I did, because this is the Present and the future (rightfully so) still seems so nebulous and uncertain. Naturally, the Future has potential, but it hasn't manifested yet. I do appreciate your trying to help me envision how things might turn out (the silver lining), and even though I'm almost certain such things will transpire in the world later on, I'm so tired right now and wish I could just fall into them like a soft pillow, already existing, when I need them so badly now. It's tiring being a 'mover and a shaker', even at the best of times, much less when one is in mourning. (you probably know this, first-hand, too) It's even tiring trying to practice patience.

So I think you'll just have to hold that dream for me for now, because I just can't muster up the energy for that myself, unfortunately. Hopefully, someone else will benefit from something I've expressed here and now, in this particular window of time. (it's also Nissa's 14th month anniversary today, so it's not surprising I'm feeling as I am) As usual, I appreciate the time and effort you took in another response to me, Marty.

Edited October 23, 2007 by Maylissa

[suzanne]

Maylissa

I benefit very much from your postings. You have touched my life so much with your compassion and empathy. So sorry about the sad day today of Nissa's anniversary. I know how much you love her. I too know of the loss of a fur baby. I do have my Layla now but it will never be the same as my Cindy. Although I love both. Layla and I are just beginning our bond but it has taken since May. The loss of my husband, my dad within a six month period has taken its toll. But when she cuddles up with me at night it is so comforting. I want to give back as much as she has given me. A fur baby's love is so unconditional and she has been so patient with me. Although very destructive at times. I guess it is the Maltese in her. I have read that is one of their traits. But we work it out. I accept her as she is and she accepts me.

I have done something I never thought I would do. I have booked a session with Lysa Mateu. Do you know of her? I am so desperate for some more communication from my beloved husband Will. I feel there is something he needs to tell me and from what I have read, she might be able to get through. I felt like from your postings that you are very in tune with communications. Have I made another huge mistake?

Suzanne

[Maylissa]

Suzanne,

Thank you for that. I'm glad you get something of use out of what I write......although it's still so sad to me that I have to go elsewhere, other than my own home, friends or aquaintances, to have my thoughts be really appreciated. (or, frankly, even my SKILLS, as I can't even seem to GIVE them away to those who know me!)

No, I've not heard of Lysa, but then again, I've always been more in the know about animal communicators, over human mediums (except for some of the really famous ones). What "huge mistake" are you referring to?

Forgive me if I'm being really obtuse tonight, but it's been a really tough day and the evening isn't going any smoother so far. This is off topic in this thread, but I'm having yet another despairing time, after having posted about my girl's anniversary today on another board, yet having gotten only one, lone, short response so far (among many who know me there), despite a number of views. And, as I'd predicted earlier today, my H hasn't even remembered that it's the 23rd, though I've been crying. Not a word said, about that, or about my verbalized disappointment in not having other people getting back to me, from every corner, in every arena. I feel like I'm wasting my time, energy, effort, and words, with people who just don't care unless I'm helping them. I just don't know what I'm doing here anymore.

[Corinne]

Maylissa,

I am sorry that yesterday was Nissa's 14 month anniversary. My heart goes out to you. It is so so hard. Today is the 8th anniversary since John went missing and last Thursday was 6 months since they found him. It is so sad that we have to come here to talk about our loved ones, but as we all know first hand people don't want to hear about it. I can't tell you how many times in the past almost 11 yrs. I have mentioned Jimmy or John and people just ignore you, put their heads down, turn away or end the conversation really quick. Unfortunately, we have to be the ones to realize they have never been through this and do not comprehend the extent of our grief and the need to talk about our loved ones. It is ignorance on their part and it is not fair to us, but what in this life is really fair? Please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you at this time.

I do agree with Marty, even though you don't think so, you do have it in you to make the changes that are needed to bring awareness to the extent of grief that people feel when they have lost one of their beautiful furbabies. Don't sell yourself short, you are one strong with woman who has what it takes to make a difference! Thank you for all you share with us, it is making a difference for us. I wish there were some magical thing I could say to help you along with your grief, but I am so messed up with mine right now. Please know that I really do care.

Hugs & prayers,

Corinne

[lorikelly]

Maylissa

Just checking in to see how you are doing? How did the day go yesterday. Did you do anything ? When it was Spankys 1yr we went out to dinner, talked about him and had a drink toasted to him. i hope today will bring a little more sunshine into your life. i am always thinking of you. Lori

[Maylissa]

Thanks, Corinne and Lori, for your concern and for sharing your own feelings. I'm sorry, too, Corinne, that you've also had 2 really hard dates to contend with lately. Yes, it's so hard when people won't LET you talk about your loved one, even if they don't have to say much themselves, but just nod their heads in empathy and allow you to speak until you're done. How hard can that be, really, especially compared to OUR pain?...and yet, it's too much to ask, it seems.

I ended up writing about what I did (not much except for crying!) on Nissa's 14 Month, in the pet loss forum, but there's been no response there.

Lori, you're lucky at least your H shared in Spanky's anniversary the way he did. For Nissa's One Year, at my request, we sat and watched most of Nissa's videos (but not the last few, being too painful to see again, so far), but I couldn't help but notice my H's boredom. That really hurt, just as much as the day itself did. Sure, he sat with me to watch, but he didn't really WANT to. And on Thanksgiving here (in Oct.), I'd tried to make a toast to both of our kids during our dinner out, but my H had not one word to add himself and even looked uncomfortable with the toast itself, so again, I wasn't able to even talk a little bit about our girl. I can no longer try to talk to him about this because he just gets mad, and even more hurtful in his responses. It just never occurs to him to DO any of the nice things in memory of someone lost, either with me (emotionally) or for me, since HE isn't interested nor does he need such things for himself. I can't keep asking for these things, with such a defensive posture from him.

You know, I read constantly about all the people out there who end up making advances in finding meaning from their loved one's passing, and lessons in compassion learned from same, and spouses having had only each other before one passed......and yet it's exactly that kind of thing that I DON'T see having happened with my own husband, no matter the loss or how close it strikes to home. Where's HIS learned compassion.....for ME, his own wife???? It's hard enough not getting compassion from others when you need it...but not getting it from one's human partner, and the other PARENT of one's 'child', no less!....it's just too hard to take! I'm sure I can't be the only one 'out there' who's having to contend with this as well, but on this board darn near everyone's spouse sounds like a dream-come-true by comparison! Even if the men don't sit and cry all the time like we women often do, they at least shed a few tears on important dates, or 'have the decency' to appear saddened once in awhile! It makes it even harder for me to live with such lack each day, and I'm ashamed to even admit there IS such lack because no one else ever talks about experiencing this, at least not to this extent. This is the main reason I'm dieing inside daily. It's as if he may as well be dead already, too, because I'm already grieving the loss of having no one here to turn to, even though he's still physically here, but not here emotionally. If he were dead, I'd have the most compelling reason to mourn such lack, but he's not, and that makes it seem even worse, if you can imagine. And this is why it's become imperative that I make even one good friend locally. This is why I need to 'fit in' somewhere, in some group....because I no longer even 'fit in' in my own family, though it consists of only two now.

I've realized I'm not getting more than the first of needs met from Abraham Maslow’s Needs Hierarchy. As he described them, these needs are

· Physiological needs (air, warmth, water, food)

· Safety needs (the feeling the world is predictable and safe)

· Self-esteem needs (feeling good about myself and feeling worth)

· Love and belongingness needs (feeling others love me and I belong)

Tell me, how does one feel good about oneself if one's living spouse doesn't even acknowledge your needs or feel enough compassion for your sorrow to act upon it, much less share in it?

[DesertBob]

Maylissa,

As a guy and as someone who was married to a person I can only describe as one of the world's foremost animal lovers, I can offer a couple of thoughts, for what they are worth.

There is much more general agreement in principle on the value of human life than there is on the value of animal life. Huge swaths of the populace have never given it any thought, and others discount the value of "lower" life forms. At the other end of the spectrum, some, like my Linda, generally hold animals in higher esteem that people, because animals don't play games, love unconditionally, etc.

It sure looks like you are in the latter group, and your husband is not. But this doesn't mean he's evil or doesn't love you. Not valuing all the things you value, or not sharing all the priorities you deem important, doesn't mean he rejects you. It's not different in principle from him preferring different foods or colors than you. But it does mean you may have to get your validation and commiseration elsewhere on this particular matter. I doubt this comes as a surprise to you, because unless he put on a good act in the past, you must have been valuing him for some quality other than his love of animals, to have married him in the first place. Celebrate, then, those qualities, and let the other go.

It's not a good idea, in my view, to have all your emotional eggs in one basket. It's asking a lot for one person to meet 110% of your needs for understanding and validation, and to totally understand every facet of your being. So I agree that it's imperative that you have friends and relationships in addition to marriage. Another practical reason, as you've seen from some of us here, is that should you lose your spouse, you might have some support system left.

I respected Linda's enormous sense of connection and responsibility to her critters, and I did my best to comfort her when she mourned the loss of one. During our marriage, she lost three dogs by natural causes, and was forced to give up an Umbrella Cockatoo that she loved dearly, due to her health issues. One thing I noticed about this, is that empathizing with Linda's sorrow stirred painful feelings in me that likely would not have otherwise risen to my awareness. It may be that your husband is unconsciously shying away from that because it confuses or scares him. He may also be a little insecure, feeling that your Nissa is crowding him out of your life, even in death. Or he just may not have a clue.

Either way the best thing is probably to reach out to someone, perhaps through some pet-oriented organization, that you can really commiserate with on this You're on the right track.

--Bob

Tell me, how does one feel good about oneself if one's living spouse doesn't even acknowledge your needs or feel enough compassion for your sorrow to act upon it, much less share in it?

[Maylissa]

I guess I really should have started a separate thread here for all this, but I didn't even think about it at the time! Sorry, all! (maybe Marty can move this to a more appropriate place....)

Hi, Bob, and thanks for your input. I've really enjoyed reading many of your posts since joining us here and value your being a real 'thinker', but not being afraid to also have emotions. Of course, that's a hallmark of the men who avail themselves of grief boards, and I already know my H would NEVER bother with these himself. As he puts it, he would have "no need" of them, even if I, too, died.

In certain ways, yes, it now appears he did "put on an act" about some animal-related things and gave me certain impressions which didn't ultimately line up with his reactions (or lack thereof) much later on. And no, had he not given me these impressions, I wouldn't have even looked twice at him in the first place, as it's a definite prerequisite for me. In fact, if not for him, I would have missed out on adopting our two babies altogether! And while no, it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't love me or that he's evil, it does take one more thing I honestly thought I could count on away from me now that I need it most. While he has done many things that supported both me and our girl during the toughest times, I still feel like he's failing me in a lot of the aftermath of her passing and get very mixed messages about same from him. For example, I will speak of how abandoned I've felt by others and he'll scorn them for being so (insert adjective here), or not having had the ready compassion to read anything about animal loss or grief in general, in order to help me out. And yet, he himself has done barely better there, except for reading whatever small piece I handed him to read (if too long, he groans, rolls his eyes and refuses to read it) or whatever I've verbally told him about grieving.....all of which he's forgotten anyway. As well, I honestly thought he'd learned a lot about the whole grief process (in particular, how it expresses itself in ME, personally) from when we lost Nissa's brother years ago. Now, it seems not.

Did I mention that I was actually told to "get OVER it" and "move ON already!" just awhile ago? This is just contemptuous behaviour, in my mind, considering I'm just as much an 'educator' at home as I am here and other places, and have obviously been frank and open about the (and my) grieving process, myths, new views of, etc. with him......each and every time.

And yes, I'm very sure he resents the purer/unconditional love I hold for our girl, despite the intellectual understanding of WHY so many of us find it easier to love animals back the way they love us.....but again, he purported to agree with that reasoning himself through the years. He's also well aware (or so he says) of how human dynamics can muddy that unconditionality in human relationships, which should be able to 'take the edge off' at least some of that resentment. In any case, it's not my responsibility to relieve him, by myself alone, of any such resentment, especially when I've also been trying very hard to recreate/refresh our partnership in our 'new normal' and he's not cooperating as much as he might with those efforts. I can only say "I'm too tired and overwhelmed to come up with everything myself right now" so many times. And the ironic thing is (and naturally I've mentioned it) is that acting so unsupportive, emotionally, is more than likely to 'crowd him out of' my life faster than anything else might.

I'm sure it does "scare" him, among other things, and he and I both know already that he can't and shouldn't be expected to provide ALL of my support needs, but neither does he encourage or help me to find other means. I've already done everything I've done to this end all by myself. Instead, he's now the first one to say there's no one out there (locally) for someone like me, we've tried for YEARS to find people of like mind (as me, in particular....his choice) locally and failed, and so I should just give up and accept that I'll/we'll be alone for the rest of our sorry lives.......just the thing an already-depressed person needs to hear from their lone 'support'! He's depressed, too, but won't seek any help like I've been frantically trying to do all year. He'd like friends, too, but won't lift a finger to find any anymore. And I can barely take care of myself, much less someone else who's not actively grieving, but even when I do try, my ideas of options are rejected out of hand. So I'm finding myself in a real bind.

And two telling differences are these: you said you "respected" Linda's sense of deep connection and responsibility to her animals, despite not sharing those feelings with her, and "that empathizing with Linda's sorrow stirred painful feelings in me that likely would not have otherwise risen to my awareness." I would think that such reactions and decisions resulted in having a positive impact on other areas of your life with Linda, too, much less having given her a sense of being able to count on you when times were tough and giving her the feeling that you were human, despite your different viewpoints. You grew from her experiences and having shared in them. On the other hand, I'd have to say that I don't get that same feeling of either much respect, or empathy. I'd settle just for the respect at this point. I now believe my husband doesn't see my efforts and committment through the years as something honourable or of great value, but more as an imposition upon what he'd rather have been living with. THAT is not respect for someone. THAT is not growth. And now, of course, I'm in mourning and can't 'get over it fast enough' for him. He doesn't truly accept the truth that many if not most people never 'get over' such things entirely (even though he's also got the past to see that I did eventually 'come back to life' in many ways) because he DOES get over (and I mean that quite literally) deaths in jig-time.

I also know this mainly stems from his family, what they taught him and how they still 'handle' stressful things. I can't help that, but he's also had the choice to see what I've done with my own family issues, ie. worked on them, even if not perfectly, and has chosen denial for himself instead. I suppose he thinks that since I can still hurt so much, it wasn't worth all my efforts to overcome any of it. He doesn't recognize that there have been gains, too. I can't help that, either. But I AM stuck with dealing with the fall-out from his choices, like it or not.

Since you're newer here, you wouldn't know about the ways I'd been trying to get these needs met by others, locally, over the past year, but it's amounted to nothing and now I don't have the strength left to continue such efforts. Here I'd finally just decided to stop searching for outside help locally, and just hole myself up with my husband instead.....just to meet with all this resistance that's only adding to my distress. I did what others suggested, what I thought of myself, and what my husband suggested, and am still at a loss as to just what I'm supposed to do now, seeing as nothing worked as planned, claimed or hoped for. I can't spend my entire life on grief boards, good as they may be at times. The quality of my life just doesn't matter enough to the only person left to me here...not enough to DO anything meaningful about it, and that's just hurting so badly I can't stand it. THIS was not what I was expecting!

In fact, I've even been told straight-out (I was asking once) that were I in hospital with a life-threatening condition, I couldn't even count on him to battle doctors for my best care or to even find out what that kind of care might entail, because he's too afraid of 'confrontation' and doesn't like research, like I do! (I don't really "like" research anyway - I just do it when I feel I need to!) OMG......I can only hope I get killed quickly, before there's even a chance for care, at this rate! (I mean, come on!.....can you imagine your spouse being like this?!) The more I think about it, the more instances like this that I remember, the more I tend to think I truly did lose pretty much everything of real value with my girl's passing.

[DesertBob]

Maylissa,

I'm sorry, it sounds like a pretty hard situation. Your husband is pretty closed down emotionally and I don't know whether he's depressed or not but he would likely need some professional help to open up, assuming he felt any desire to.

Somewhere or other I read a saying that I have gradually come to accept: "The hardest lesson to learn in life is that other people have only their own kind of love to give, not our kind". Although Linda and I were great together, like any couple we had our less than perfect moments. Linda was a type-A go-getter and she had a somewhat confrontational style that I, being very laid back, tended to take personally. She really needed someone to "push back" in a disagreement (or even a discussion) -- she respected and enjoyed that sort of thing, sort of like jousting for sport, but it only horrified me. I had a hard time with that. Sometimes I think Linda would have the same complaint about me that you do about your husband, too, regarding not sufficiently defending her or fighting on her behalf with others because I tend to avoid conflict by default. In my defense I would say though that often, those confrontational people have made up their mind and it's largely futile to confuse them with facts. Personally I prefer to pick my battles, particularly with arrogant people with Jesus complexes, like many doctors. Life is short and windbags are forever.

But I came to understand her ways in these things eventually, and she so obviously loved me, and was always scheming for my benefit, that it covered a multitude of sins. I like to think she felt the same about me. And toward the end she even allowed that my way of leaving things on the back burner and "not looking at them" was pretty effective for some situations, and she probably wasted too much of her life force obsessing and trying to make all things perfect. At the same time I know for a fact I'm more proactive than I was before I met Linda -- she taught me the value of that too. I know it because now that she's gone I automatically stay on top of things I would have let slide before I met her. I am astounded at how much knowing her changed me.

I guess what I'm saying in my rambling way is, your and your husband have things to teach each other, although, I doubt either of you is particularly enjoying the learning process right now! Try to value each other for that. Easier said than done, I know ...

Hang in there,

--Bob

[Maylissa]

Thanks again, Bob, for giving me these examples. Yes, indeed, your Linda sounds quite similar to me. I really do understand the "jousting" idea and the feeling of a higher engagement with life this imparts to a discussion....although I also enjoy discussions on 'softer' levels. I just like lots of communication, period! And you're right - like you, my H's uncomfortable with this other style (well, unless he's the one initiating it, and more so at work), or with much discussion, period. Since I'm able to explain myself and he's not, he gives up trying. We're not a good match, that way, nor with my sensitive nature versus his cooler one. The grief journey just punctuates these differences to an unbearable level.

However, even more than anything I may have brought forth in him, it breaks my heart that our babies themselves couldn't even manage to plumb those depths in him, in a more sustained way. If there were ever a time I saw total tenderness in his eyes, it was when he was holding and loving them, particularly his girl....so poignant, it often caused me tears of joy...something else I took my expectations from.

Unfortunately, he doesn't really 'buy' that he's as emotionally closed down as he really is (a psychologist-verified assessment, btw, after meeting with him), or rather, that this is especially so regarding the softer feelings. You can't discuss what's buried in denial. Many of the feelings in grief are, of course, those softer ones...the ones he's so cut off from. Strangely, though, he'll shed a tear for some stranger's story on TV, or feel real empathy for someone at work, seemingly faster and more naturally than for his own family. Another thing that doesn't do much for my sense of worth to him! Nor does he want to repeat any counseling....pretty typical for a guy, from what I've heard. His fears of feeling vulnerable in that kind of setting far outweigh any desire he might have to improve things, and he actually believes that counseling is a complete waste of time and money. To his mind, if I didn't get 90-100% satisfaction &/or improvement from same, it's 100% worthless. The only outcome that might change his mind is if something I tried worked a total miracle, in short order....this attitude, from a self-proclaimed realist.

I am astounded at how much knowing her changed me.

THIS is one of those all-important lessons in life to which I was referring earlier, the kind of thing that my H doesn't take seriously, nor appreciate in the present. Although I'm one to express not only appreciation I feel for any kind gestures, or hurrahs for accomplishments from/by him, unfortunately, I have to draaaaaag the same out of him, for myself. I highly doubt, were I to die first, he'd take the time to reflect on such deeper meanings, even in my absence. I doubt I've even made a small dent, or if I have, its meaning will be lost in his penchant for living on the surface of everything. So there is no one left to even really bear witness to my life. Any obituary for me would be incredibly short, if there was one at all - he doesn't see the need for those, either.

I'm a thinker, but despite that I can't even see what I'm supposed to learn from all THIS....unless it's that I need to need nobody. Yes, this IS pretty hard, and I'm bereft.

On a lighter note....

Life is short and windbags are forever.

I do get a kick out of your humour. Oh, and can you explain to me how the heck you do those "trademark" signs on a keyboard? I've needed them before, but haven't a clue....

[DesertBob]

Maylissa,

To get the trademark sign on this forum (and in some other places that support it, such as Outlook mail) just type open parenthesis TM close parenthesis and it comes out that way when it's eventually viewed. You won't see it on the forums until you save it and read it later.

I do think it's a Guy Thing, not just about shrinks but about doctors in general. We seem to have lousy patience compared to women -- a poor ability to keep trying until a problem yields. We get fed up too easily.

As an example, I strained my shoulder about 6 months ago and it's never really been right since and I had 3 or sessions with my chiropractor and it accomplished nothing, so I really, really SHOULD see someone else but what are my choices?

1) See my GP, who will send me ping ponging around town getting MRIs or perhaps refer me to a PT for painful therapy, and may or may not give me the cortisone shot I probably need to calm the thing down. Advantage: fully insured. In other words I will quite plausibly kill many hours and push my workdays into the night-time when I'm least effective, for a couple of weeks. That is non-trivial.

2) See Linda's old alternative doc who would probably want to do prolotherapy, which might be just the thing except that I'd be a new patient and would have to sit through a couple of appointments including a full physical before I'd get what I actually need. And for intaking a new patient he'll want to run a few hundred $ worth of lab tests including Stoopoid ones like testing for VD which I known full well I don't have. And he doesn't participate in any insurance.

3) Live with the pain, which is zero unless I reach behind me in certain specific ways, at which point it's excruciating.

Right now, I see the pain of doing nothing as considerably less than the pain of doing something. After I finish a planned business trip in a couple of weeks I will probably cave and go see the GP because I'll feel less pressured at that point about all the running around that's apt to spawn. And I am just (barely) smart enough to see that if something happened to my OTHER arm I would probably have to hire someone just to get my shirt on in the morning. You start thinking about things like that when you live alone.

Now Linda would have made appointment after appointment, even when it only made practical matters worse, simply because that's what you are "supposed" to do.

Sometimes her way worked better, and sometimes it didn't.

--Bob

[Maylissa]

Thanks for the....wait for it.... thing....we'll see if this works as stated. Hey...how 'bout that?! Magic! Yeah!

And for the guy example/humour. My masculine side is just as 'up there' as my feminine, so it may help to know that I've done the same kind of thing, too, especially with physical problems. But sometimes, that's even served me better than rushing off to have it tended to, so I know what you mean. I LIKE having a balance of both sides within myself.....but my H doesn't believe me when I laud the benefits of working on that, though he often reaps the rewards, eg. don't like shopping, most often prefer practicality/function, etc. We often do joke that he's also more like a woman in some ways (except for those darn feelings!), so he's not got that long a way to go!

As for your shoulder, have you heard of or considered A.R.T.? (Active Release Technique) Some chiro's have the training in this (look for the maximum training 'levels'; if they've done their "Ironman" certification, they've got more training for certain), so it can usually be covered under insurance if they just receipt it as "chiropractic treatment". Hurts like STINK during certain parts of a session (practice your screaming technique!....or, bring some duct tape for your mouth....you think I'm kidding.... ), but also can work like a charm, and often very quickly, especially if the injury is new. For example, I waited well over a YEAR to treat one injury, so it took about 10-12 sessions to get it done with, for good, they claim....been months now and it's holding just fine. Whereas, if I'd gone fairly soon, it would have been only about up to 6 session. I'd also never seen this particular chiro. before, yet we simply got right into treatment.Of course, I already had a regular chiro. so could just decline additional treatment for that end. It's highly touted for shoulder or any other joint complaints, even long-standing ones of 20 years or so. Treatment here was $40/session (for like only 5 minutes of work each time...a blessing, believe me! ) but it was covered.

[DesertBob]

Thanks for the link and tip, Maylissa, I'll check it out. It doesn't sound unlike what physical therapists do for "frozen shoulder syndrome" -- just rip everything loose and force the mobility. It may yet come to that.

--Bob

As for your shoulder, have you heard of or considered A.R.T.? (Active Release Technique)

[Maylissa]

Thanks, Marty, for moving this whole thread! Better, no? And the title sounds apt enough to me. Thanks for that, too. You'd be good as a newspaper editor as well!

[shell]

Bob,

I just had to thank you for my one good, long laugh of the day! "Stoopoid" tests...hahahahahahaha...I love it! I also laughed when you mentioned the VD test. I went to a GP one time with what I was sure was ringworm (I had a very sick kitty at the time that HAD ringworm and I ended up with it practically all over me, because I handled him so much to give him his meds. I would squat down and put my knees around him to hold him steady, for instance...you get the idea!) and he insisted I take a blood test. They called to tell me it came back negative and I asked them what it was for (because at the time he kept mumbling the name of it, so I really had no idea) and they said it was a STD test. I, like you, could have told him I knew I didn't have any STDs and was shocked. But then it just became funny! It's a sorry commentary that doctors don't even know what ringworm looks like nowadays! And it WAS ringworm! Anyway, I laughed long and hard when I read your post, and for that I thank you!

Hugs,

Shell

[DesertBob]

Glad you got a laugh, Shell. Actually I meant to say Stoopid, not Stoopoid.

In a way I can't blame the guy, and am surprised it's not more common than it is that testing for STDs would be part of baseline testing. He doesn't know his patients from Adam (or Eve) and it's not like he can assume people are going to be honest about their sex lives. I suppose it's connected with cost plus the fact that most doctors don't look at the whole person, just whatever problem they present with (or as they like to condescendingly say, what complaint they have). So, CBC is about the only routine test anyone runs. In that sense this doctor probably has more on the ball than most, in that he tries to assess the total picture up front.

Besides, the cynical side of me says that spending hundreds of bucks gets you invested and more likely to come back for more!

--Bob

Bob,

I just had to thank you for my one good, long laugh of the day! "Stoopoid" tests...hahahahahahaha...I love it! I also laughed when you mentioned the VD test.

[Maylissa]

Okay, Bob....now I have to laugh, AGAIN!....cuz I can't believe what you'd really meant to say was "STOOPID" (though I kinda wondered at the time if this was just a typo)....becaaaauuuussse....one distance friend and I have been using that form of the word for DECADES ourselves and it always gives us such a chuckle, because if it only reminds us of just how immature we can still be (and have FUN with it!) ....it just makes "stupid" sound even more stoopid! I'm sure you 'get' this. (she's not gonna believe someone ELSE uses it, too! )

[DesertBob]

I honestly don't remember where I picked the habit of that word up ... it was sometime in the past dozen years.

I enjoy finding just the right word to express an idea -- or inventing one if I must.

--Bob

[shell]

Bob,

That's why I love reading your posts! You should be a writer. Actually, I kind of like stoopoid better!

Hugs,

Shell

Edited November 1, 2007 by shell