Paul S

You mean me? Right here. Shell tol' me wuz lookin' fer me. I read your post, and then Marty's. Go and do what Marty says. Hi Marty! Basically, been there, done that. Awakened in the morning, or had a grief attack in the day, whatever. A hole has been dug and you just can't seem to get out of it. You've been there before, and you know you've gotten out of it in the past, and you even know how you did it. But you just can't do it this time. Why? I dunno. Depression maybe. Self-pity. Maybe you just shouldn't bother TRYING to get out of it, just ride the wave and it'll dissipate in it's own accord. In 12-Step programs it is sometimes likened to an insanity. Not that you need therapy or medication, just the insanity of knowing something is wrong with you, knowing what to do about it, and then not doing it. Since griefwork is a recovery somewhat similar to 12-step recovery programs, the term can be applied here. I've had this insanity off and on, too. Don't worry, it'll happen again. Perhaps just reading all your old posts and maybe the topics they were in will help. Maybe all you need is a catalyst, and the old posts may be just the thing. Sorry I've been away. Dealing with other things, for good or bad. You can always PM me, the systems shoots a notification to my email. I've missed this place.

Lori: No one thinks you're terrible. You did the best you could under extremely trying circumstances that would have broken most people. You persevered in navigating through a treacherous moral minefield in maintaining a relationship with your Mom and fidelity to her while trying to establish some semblance of a relationship with your Dad. And you had every right to re-establish your relationship with him, he was your Father. The fact that your siblings basically hated him is on their conscience, and you don't deserve to be held hostage to their opinions of him. Your descriptions of their behavior towards your Dad and their lack of interest in him (except for hi$ money) paint a picture of them that is clear. You need not care what they think. (I know, I know, easier said than done. ) On the issue of you not telling anyone your Dad died. Like they would have cared. They were probably more upset over being excluded from the Will than you not telling them. Your Mom is another issue, you should have kept your relationship with him a secret, as best you could have, out of respect and certain safety concerns. She found out when the toolbox was gone, but although she used it as an opportunity to guilt-trip you later on, there was no rupture in your relationship. It continued on and you were able to care for her in her final years. That she was in a nursing home is a natural source of guilt, but if there was no way because of your own family that she could have lived with you, and then that is the best you could do, therefore no reason for guilt. And she lived for several years longer than she otherwise would have. A great point to meditate on when you try to excise the guilt from your conscience. We all beat ourselves up, I am an expert at it. Yikes, beating myself up is an art form. I could write depressing poetry on it and be popular in coffeehouses where people dress alike in black. But after a fashion there comes a point where we have to stop using ourselves as a punching bag, especially when there are plenty of others perfectly willing to do it for us. Discard those who are the problem, at least when you are able. You've done your job. You took care of your Mom, you mended fences with your Dad. If I recall, I think you said somewhere that you are a Catholic Christian. In my opinion, I think you acted as best a Christian could have. You honored your Father and Mother. Their relationship with each other was their responsibility, not yours. Just as your siblings actions are theirs, not yours. That's another area of guilt you have to work on, and you can use the "honored my Father and Mother" thing to excise that guilt. SO, focus on the good stuff. You helped extend your Mom's life, you mended fences with your Dad, you honored your parents, oh, and you apparently have a nice family of your own! A great, strong and supportive husband, along with 2 nice children, who loved their grandfather. They probably got that from you. Compare and contrast all that with your sibling's behavior. You have a family. Your husband, and the two kids. Forget the rest. No wonder you got sick at Applebee's. Hope this helps. Paul

Hi, all: On the first anniversary of my Mom's death (coming up this Nov 7th) I am scheduled to take a training class for a Fransiscan volunteer thing that I have. The class title? "Spiritual Aspects of Dying" Oh, I can't wait! I'm trying to take the optimistic approach and regard it as a coincidence meant to teach me something. Being made to think, again... Paul

Funnyface mentioned something important that I forgot when I was going on about counseling. Support groups are wonderful. You are with (physically present to) other people who are there for the same reason you are: they all lost someone important enough that the absence means help is needed. You connect with others in a personal way, at your level of comfort. You can go in and talk, vent or cry, or just sit there and listen. Doesn't matter. You don't feel as alone. This board is GREAT, available 24/7/365, and someone is almost always around. But in-person support I think is invaluable. Just thought I'd toss that in there. Paul

Hi KathyW: There's not much that I can personally say about the magnitude of your losses and the enormous stresses that you have been under. All that I can say at this time is that you are not alone in any of this. There are a great number of people on this board who have been through losses of every kind and can relate in some way to what you've been through. Spend time here posting what you are feeling. Venting helps. We understand. Spend time here reading. Go all over the Parent Loss forum, along with the "Behaviors in Bereavement" section and read. You will find that what you are feeling and dealing with is a common experience with many bereaved. One suggestion since you said that you have no one to confide in is that grief counseling may be something to consider. I know that you meant someone to confide in the about day to day stuff and deeper things, but I think now it would be very necessary to find someone for this specific need. Many places like a Hospice or a bereavement center offer free counseling. I know I started counseling about a month after my Mom died last November, and continued it until recently, and it made major difference in piecing back together my life. I was able to understand what I was going through and how to cope with the duration much better than I otherwise would have. I wiull probably resume it in a few months, near or about the 1st anniversary of her death. MartyT, the great lady who runs this joint, has a selection of links and a recommended reading list that can provide more information. I will pray for you in this, and there are a bunch of others here who will share with you their stories and advice. Or just and ear to listen to you. Paul

I agree with Marty. You have to do what's right for you when you're suffering, especially an emotionally sensitive (and personal) situation like a birthday. You have to determine that whether to suffer through it to make the family happy is worth it in the short run (i.e. can you deal with the pain to avoid long term animosity?) or whether to tick them off to avoid short term pain is worth possible long term effects (how long will they hold it against you?) I don't know your family dynamics, and how important birthdays are, but that may seem to be the choice. Avoid the short term pain by blowing off the party and offending them, and thus meriting however long a period of time they'll hold it against you, or to put on a happy face and attend the party, and have your insides churn up, but they'll be nice to you later. Which is better: to have a family member drive you to the doctor for your ulcer, or to have them guilt-trip you into doing something with them later? Thanksgiving is in 3 months, and Christmas is 4 months away, today!!!!!!! (When I turned 30 last year, if last year was 1993 , I told my friends that I DID NOT WANT A CELEBRATION. But they did, anyway. They tried to explain it away as being Super Bowl Sunday. I tried to explain that birthday cake and ice cream are not yer typical Super Bowl Sunday fare, but they failed to see my razor-sharp logical exposition of their conspiracy and proceeded to be relentlessly cheerful. I proceeded to be morose. This did sour the party. I tried to salvage it a little by saying they must be getting depressed because Dallas was destroying Buffalo. They said, "No, we're Southerners and Dallas beating a lousy Northern team, bless their heart, is just dandy. It's YOU messing with the festivities." I tried to tell them I warned them. They still failed to see my ziplock baggie-tight logic. They did get over it, quickly (all of us then being quite avid drinkers), and never celebrated my b-day again, but in a few short years we all went our separate ways anyway, so the point's moot.) Hope some of this helps. Paul

KathyD: It's YOUR birthday, you should celebrate it any way you want to. A polite, but firm, "I'm not (or doing it privately) this year because Dad isn't here. It wouldn't be the same, maybe next year." Or something like that. Paul

Hi all, Grief takes a LOT out of you. During the first few months after my Mom's death, I was sleeping 8-12 hours a day. Really pooped duiring the day. It's all part of the experience. It gets you physically, mentally, spiritually, every which way. Paul

Yep, that's pretty much what we do.

Hi shelley, I reviewed the postings on this topic going wayback to when it started. I think the thing to do now is you have to do something to take care of yourself. Whether it is something physical like shell said at first, or going for long walks or drives like I did (I know you can't drive yet), but something to 'clean the pipes'. Shell had said that being a caregiver was physically and psychologically draining and so now what do we do? Even if you were in anticipatory grief (knowing that a loved one is dying, so the grievieng process has started for you) that is emotionally draining on many levels. You had been caregiving your parents and then sitting with them in a hospital. So, now what do you do to fill up your tanks? Paul

Ah, shucks... Y'all wouldn't be lost. Somebody else would show up. One strange feeling or thought I've never (to my recollection) heard expressed is a desire to meet our deceased loved ones. That ain't gonna happen of course until we ourselves die, and despite my yearning for the Other Side, I'm not THAT ready to cross the Abyss. But I think it would be neat to play golf with Shell's Dad, and so on. OK, so that was a weird post, but I just felt like putting it out there.

Saying that you feel "FINE" is perfectly OK, if you mean that you are feeling Frustrated, Irritable, Negative and Emotional..

Hi shelley: I think MartyT has a "Recommended Reading List" somewhere on the HOV site. I have read "Grieving the Death of a Mother" by Harold Ivan Smith. I loved this, it was excellent. I sing it's praises like a choir of angels praising God. Smith also wrote "On Grieving the Death of a Father". I do not have that one, but I may get it someday. If it's as good as the "...Mother" book, its worth it! So in a way, I am recommending it based on the strength of the other. I'm not a professional critic, so I don't care if you can't do that. Another goodie is "A Time to Grieve: Meditations for Healing After the Death of a Loved One" by Carol Staudacher. One-page meditations and reflections. I think it was one of the first I read after Mom died. You needn't read it from front to back, just pick and choose from the page titles those meds which appeal to you. I am also reading "In the Letting Go: Words to Heal the Heart on the Death of a Mother" by Jonathon Lazear. Just started it, and its like the Staudacher, with some nice reflections and poetry. ALTHOUGH I JUST NOW DISCOVERED THAT MY COPY IS MISSING PAGES 25 AND 26. AND I TOSSED THE RECEIPT OUT. Paul not happy. Paul grumpy. Lazear has also written a similar book on losing a Father, which I do not have but you can research it on Amazon or Google. Don't know the title. Probably as good as the Mother one. I am now reading, and like this one very very much: "The Orphaned Adult: Understanding and Coping with Grief and Change After the Death of Our Parents" by Alexander Levy. I highly recommend this one. There is also: "Seven Choices: Finding Daylight After Loss Shatters Your World" by Elizabeth Harper Neeld. She has a website: http://www.elizabethharperneeld.com. You can check out the book there. It's not on parent loss, but should help you very much, anyway. Neeld lost her husband, but the "Choices" I think are common to anyone who lost somebody. One I haven't read yet, but plan to before the year is out is: "Becoming Myself: Living Life to the Fullest After the Loss of Your Parents", by Shari Butler. Sounds good based on the blurbs and info on the back. Anyway, I'm sure others have great recommendations as well. Paul PS: There's another book that I and others routinely recommend; "Companions Through the Darkness" by Stephanie Ericcson. shell's read it (or reading it, I forget). kellymarie has also read it, and I guess was planning a weekend around a second reading of it. Not on parent loss, but still a good book.

shelley: I, too, want my parents with me. But then I think of all the stuff that's happening in the world, it is increasingly confusing and worrying, so in a way I am glad they are safer. Free from harm and worry and anxiety. And they are with their family, their own parents whom they haven't seen in decades, plus siblings and so on. shell: You're Dad can play golf with my Dad Up There. Dad never wanted to play golf, always said he was never old enough. For some reason he felt that golf was played by old men, which was sort of true in my parish so I think he was just digging at the big mucky-mucks at the church. My Dad has probably been playing on Heaven's links for 10 years. A good friend of mine died of leukemia a few months before Dad did, and they're buried near each other. So JJ probably taught him the ropes. My Mom probably caddies. My Dad, in turn, probably takes JJ to Yankee Great ballgames. Oh, to be there instead of here. I'll skip the Yankee games, though. (Brooklyn/LA Dodgers or Washington Senators for me.)

lorikelly: My parents gave me my Faith as well. I had also left it for a few years, and discovered what life is like without it. My Mom prayed me back into it, and like you, don't know where I'd be if I was still out there. Its less scary with a Partner. I am given what I can handle, nothing more. Paul

I was tolerant. I wasn't pushing my opinions on anyone, just proposing (not imposing) what I believe, with no requirement that others agree with me. This is what others do with their varied spiritual beliefs. Nor was I telling anyone on how to grieve or how to feel better. You, however, were dismissing religion, (" this thread seems to have been smothered in religion, which this site is not about") as if because this site is not sponsored by a religious organization, it has no place here. So who's pushing opinions on whom? So much for tolerance, esp with the singling out of Catholicism. No problem with agreeing to disagree, but take care with accusations of intolerance. Take care, and I'm sorry for any offense. But I felt compelled to defend certain beliefs from what I perceived to be intolerance.

No, this site is not about religion, but references to religion and God are inevitable when discussing death and grieving, since death makes you at least consider eternity. If you do not believe in God, then fine, although I find it hard to concieve of the idea that the entire Universe just came into being by itself, there had to be a First Cause of some sort that is eternal, that wrote the physical laws and mathematical variables and constants that go into the Universe's creation and continued existence. Just my 2 cents, lest this carry on into a non-germaine debate, but I do not have the faith of an athiest, to believe all this just happened, even by ordered and governed methods over time. Adam and Eve are not to be taken literally, although biologists have determined that we have descended from an isolated African village, and from one woman. (Google mitochondria and Eve) The Genesis story of creation was just meant to convey the idea that God created everything, saw that it was good, created us, saw that we were good and we lived in perfect harmony with Him, until our ancestors out of pride determined that they can be like God, and destroyed that harmony. This latter explains evil and why bad things happen. We tinkled in our pool. We are still doing that, people divinizing themselves and determining for themselves what is right and wrong. The Bible is a collection of stories, some historical fact, some just fiction meant to convey meaning. It was not meant to be an an all-inclusive explanation of human history and how we got here, just the plan of salvation. (Oh, BTW, there is no need to attack one particular religion. You may have opinions of the Catholic Church, but it is imperfect, being composed of humans. But is is poor, relatively speaking, as it primarily exist in poor, poverty-stricken areas of the world. It is also probably among the largest social services organization on the planet, working towards relieving poverty and injustice everywhere. Its so-called wealth are largely liabilities that it couldn't sell off if it wanted to, being priceless artworks and such. Its Churches are meant to direct peoples' attention to the glory of God, and also wouldn't relieve people of poverty with their sale. Poverty is not solved by tossing money at it, like left-of-center political parties think, it is solved thru fundamental, sytematic changes of how we order our economies and personal lives. Religions offer the best, comprehensive, humane and compassionate ways of doing that. Organized athiesm offered Nazism and Communism, which together killed hundreds of millions more people than anything else. To single out one religion borders on bigotry and intolerance, as all religions, Christian and others, have amassed "wealth". People of religious faith just like building houses of worship to honor the Creator. Not doing so will not end poverty, just create more poverty of a different sort.)

Yeah, me too. But some people may be hurt if they see their stuff missing. I suppose people can just post again.

I just noticed when I went to review a topic in "Behaviors in Bereavement", the one entitled something like "Why do some people feel better than others?' It seemed to be much shorter. I remember that there were several more posts than the 3 as of now. I know this because I was going to post after about the 3rd, but decided to wait a bit. Then the thread went off on a tangent that made me decide to just lurk. Now its back to where it was when I first thought of posting. So I went up and down the topics, and noticed that there are few posts from the 16th, and none from the 17th, when the board was still up. Anyone else notice this or anm I hallucinating???

Maybe there should be a new forum: "Loss of website".

Like an oasis in a desert, the site is wonderful and more importantly HERE!!!!! Hi Marty!

Hey Leann, That's a great idea about writing a book on fatherloss for daughters. I think there are, but Marty T would know better about any in print. (Try a general book store, like a Barnes & Nobles, or a Borders) Like you, I've had a similar problem, none on motherloss for sons. I found one book on motherloss by Harold Ivan Smith that was great, and really helped me as it was at least written by a guy, but still...a whole row of books on motherloss for daughters (not to diminish it at all, but sons feel the loss very keenly, too ). I wish someone would write at least ONE text on Motherloss for sons. Anyway, I wish you much luck on your endeavor. You're lucky, you have your home and family. lorikelly: People who "get over things so easily" may be fooling themselves (or you). they may not be over it at all, r worse, just pushed it aside and are not dealing with it. At least you are dealing with it. As for people who think you should be over it at 6 weeks, *&$#@^(*)*& 'em. They're stupid and ignorant people. Get away from them. Pay them no attention, if you can. That topic comes up alot in my support group meetings and that's the usual advice. As shelley said, shell's right, you can trust her, it does get better, it just takes time (I know you know that. We do need to hear it again a lot early on.)

All in all, I'm staying on THIS side of the border!

I also have the fear that I may not remember my Mom (or Dad) but my fear is based on age. If I die at about their ages, then I've got about 40+ years to go. I fear that things will dim with time. It may be natural to worry so, but we shouldn't because they're always a part of us, despite how we may feel now. Do what you can, when you can or are able, to remember the lost. Journalling, photos, scrapbooks, whatever .

I visit the cemetary frequently. I also have a lock of Mom's hair that was stuck in a hair curler of hers, I sealed it in a little ziplock baggie. To me that's almost like she's physically here.