Should I Stay Or Should I Go?

[kayc]

You're so right, hockeymom! I'd rather have two good friends than 100 that just aren't there in the same way I am for them. People view friendship differently, I read an article years ago that really helped me understand it in a non-judgmental way. It's more about us finding that good "fit". Some view a friend as someone they can share everything with, want to talk on the phone the second you get home, want all your time, want you exclusively. I find that smothering, they're needy. Some just want it in name only, like mere acquaintances, that's fine, but I don't call that a "friend". Some want friendship for fun, but don't expect anything from them. That's fine as long as you realize you can't count on them, and don't pour too much of your life into them either. Others are true blue, anything you need, they're there, now I call that a friend, and I'll reciprocate!

[Pollara]

Well in my opinion, general relationship rules don't apply to them. I don't know how to explain it, but they are in a stage similar to clinical depression. But, in my life I know 2 cases with really clinical depression. The husband of the one girl has really gone crazy because his wife (the depressed) doesn't want to do anything and she had tried twice to commit suicide. Her attitude towards him reminds me of our boyfriends (I hope they don't want to commit suicide of course). But he only wants her best, even if this means to break up. So I am thinking that you shouldn't think of him or what he is going to do or something. His problem is grief. If it was depression (clinical) would you act the same? It is like they have lost their minds at this time. Yes and it seems to us that they don't care. And in reality at this time they actually don't care. For instance, before my boyfriend comes here we had limit our communication to one every 3 days or something. One day I tripped and I fall down some stairs and my foot was hurting so much that I was thinking of going to hospital. This day we talk on the phone. The next 3 days I disappeared and it was the fourth day that he remembered my existence and searched for me to see if I am ok. But if I were in the hospital? He knew that I don't have a lot of friends here but he didn't care. When he came here, one of my exes (who usually was jealous for him) called me and he didn't even flinch. The only thing that I can think that might shock them and get them out of this bubble would be to replace their grief with another grief. For instance, I think that if something bad (like accident, serious illness etc) will happen to us, then they will run and even feel guilty. But sorry I prefer to be healthy. I have friends that they will run from the other side of the earth too so I really don't care.

What I want to explain is that at this time they actually don't care but not because they ignore us or something. It is like they are in a very difficult mental situation and they are alone on this. So, if you are ok with him coming back and continue ok. But if you aren't then you shouldn't bother yourself. You should go yous holidays and you will see that you will feel better. Set a timeline and if he doesn't return just go on with your life. Well at least that is what I had in my mind. I didn't tell him the due date in order not to pressure him, but in my case the inevitable happened.

Apart from this I am doing better these days. I still think of him and the bad thing is that our common friends keep coming with his updates and to tell me don't worry he will return and I also can see him online on my chat. But it's ok in a month I will be ok! I just need to be patient!

KayC about the weakness that you mentioned above, I have a friend that she is cynical and she doesn't understand grief at all and she hated my boyfriend fro grieving his mother. But in her delirium she had a right point, she told me: ok and then supposed he will come back, do you want to be with a weak guy like him? You are a wonderwoman and you will have the weakling next to you? or do you want to play the role of the mother he lost? I guess she had her points

[kayc]

Everyone has to decide for themselves what they will/won't put up with and how long they will do it. But we all need to look out for our own well being first and foremost because if we don't, nothing's going to be any good anyway.

[plum]

Well it's getting onto nearly a week of no contact. I agree that its like he doesn't care if Im alive or not. He hadn't tried to contact me again after the sending stupid MSG that I didn't reply to. Which btw is the first time I've not replied to him.

At this stage I don't know if I want to work things out even if he wants to because I dont know who he is anymore. And part of me doesn't trust this person who seems to be appreciative of all my efforts and keeps treating me crap.

I guess if he makes no further attempt to contact me then it wont be necessary to have the 'talk' as he isn't dumb and can prob figure things out himself.

In the meantime I'm going to enjoy my holiday and focus my energy on ppl that actually appreciate having me in their lives

[Pollara]

Hi ladies! I heard something today that confirmed my theory at least in my case. One common friend found him totally drunk and she asked him why did he break up with me and he told her: "In the beginning I was so in love with her, but then I found her immature". I really cannot understand how can I be immature, that I put aside all my selfishness in order to make him feel better, but what I can understand is that in my case it wasn't grieving alone the problem. I wonder what did he wait all these months and didn't tell me anything? To become more mature?

Anyway, I found him in chat and I told him that I think the reason he broke up with me wasn' t because he didn't want me to wait but he just didn't like me enough to begin with or he stopped liking me or he didn't like the way I handled his situation and he told me that he really don't know. he cannot think anything and he was even thinking to take antidepressants. And I asked him, if there is any chance of us getting back together some time in the future?and he told me that he really doesn't know since he cannot think clearly and that his mind thinks irrational things lately. With this I just wanted to make him admit that he found me immature but he insisted on his doesn't know. Is it that difficult I wonder to tell the truth?

But this was enough for me to move on. I had another impression of this guy, not to go to my friends and tell them that he was so in love with me but then he realized I am immature. Since I am immature, I will act as immature and delete him and cut any means of contact with hi,/

[kayc]

Pollara,

I am sorry he wasn't mature enough to be real and honest with you. I asked Jim the same thing, was there something else in our relationship that he'd considered breaking up with me and he adamently denied it. Since he seems to be cowardly I don't know if that's the truth or not. It would be so much easier if these guys would be honest and real with us, that we could handle...it might hurt in the beginning but we could move on...it's the lack of closure and not understanding what's going on that made it so hard. In the end, I had to do what was best for me, regardless of his responses or lack of them, and I think that's true for all of us, regardless of what the outcome is.

[plum]

Hi pollara

Oh I'm sorry to hear about what ur bf said to ur friend!

That shows that he is the immature one and I think it definitely shows that u can do so much better than him and move on.

I agree cut him out of ur life, no need to make space for some immature a$$hole!

When ur ready I'm sure someone that's lot better than ur ex will come along

[Pollara]

Well it is kind of a broken phone line since I didn't learn it directly from her, she said it to another girl, who said it to another friend of mine who said it to me, but I don't believe that the meaning would have changed so much along the way. But this characterization for me is kinda of irrational. Out of true curiosity I would like to know how he ended up on it. Because chronically taken it, the facts were that he was really in love with me and then he found out that I am immature. Taken it from his behavior towards me, he was really nice before the death and became distant after. So after death he realized I was immature. But how can he realized that at that time since he wasn't talking to me and it was his choice. I tried a lot of times to see how he feels and if he wants to talk about it and he told me no. The only reason I can think is the fact that I don't want to have family.

Some of my friends told me that I already did a lot and I couldn't have fall to a lowest point than this, but I didn't see it that way. I never posed any pressure at him and I believe I did my best in order to make him feel better. Something that every immature girl would have done huh? So I wanted him to know my point of view and I just went and tell him. What is the worst that he can do? Break up with me? But he already did that! Don't talk to me again? I really don't care to have a friend that he thinks of me as immature and the worst thing go and tell it to the first person who ask him why did we break up. In the worst case scenario I lost a chance for him to return to me. I don't think I hold such a chance to begin with, since he thinks of me as immature. So I believe that I didn't lose much.

It is not that I try to make excuses for him or something or still hold my hopes, but could he be that due to his grieving at his anger stage he finds problems in everyone? Because he told me that he cannot think clearly. Could it be that something that I said or done was misunderstood? Or something that I said and done which otherwise wouldn't have give any attention to it, he gave it more and he exaggerated? I really don't know how he went and said something like that. I mean he could have said that he stopped being in love with me or he saw that we are not compatible, because in general he is very kind and don't say bad things about anyone or characterizations, not to mention to a common friend. Some of my friends saying that since he is hiding from everyone the fact that he grieves, he would definitely not tell to anyone the real reason (the grieving). But I still believe he could have come up with a kinder excuse to say, even if he was totally drunk. Not to mention that when you are drunk you are saying the truth.

I am starting to believe that he is the kind of guy that he likes to have problems (subconsciously of course). Yesterday I asked him to go and see and counselor or maybe to propose him something to read and he told me no. But apart from the death (which of course is a real big problem) he doesn't have any other problems. I mean, imagine to have the death and to be unemployed without anyone helping you and without friends etc. Not to mention that he continuously said about his ex how crazy and paranoid she was but he was with her for 4 years. He was continuously breaking up with her and then returned. How can you return to someone that you have said to anyone that you broke up with her because she is crazy? I believe that maybe the girl wasn't that crazy at the end of the day, but his actions made her have a specific way of dealing over things, or he is the kind of guy that he likes this crazy or difficult situations in order to stay in his problems. No girl will be perfect for him. The ex was crazy, I was immature, who knows what the next girl could be? Or he might even return to me or to his ex, in order to keep on his dramatic overeactions. I know that maybe in the past he had more energy to spend on sick situations and maybe now he doesn't but they say that in order to predict the future, you should take a look at the past actions. So his actions were irrational from back then: I have a girlfriend that she is crazy. I break up with her and tell to everyone that I don't want to be with a crazy girl. I return to the crazy girl and this keeps on for 4 years.

[kayc]

Hmm, if his ex is crazy and you're immature, I guess he needs to learn a thing or two about picking, huh? JS...

[plum]

Pollara I think ur ex sounds like he is a miserable twat and can't admit to the fact that it was his fault that the relationship didn't work but instead finds reason to blame u.

I don't think u should take any notice of what he said about u to his friends. Maybe he was a kind and caring person before but sounds like he is a miserable a$$hole now.

No point in trying to figure out why he said such a thing, he isn't worthy of ur time or emotions.

I think my guy 'used to be' a nice and caring person but he is now an a$$ and a selfish human being that probably can't ever do wots needed to be happy or take a chance on things.

I think for both of our sanity we should just let it go and if we never hear from them again so be it.

Don't be dragged down with them anymore and lets be free to be happy and enjoy our lives without them.

Sure I understand that grief does funny things to people but u just don't treat people that u supposedly care about in such a horrendous and selfish way and expect things to be 'ok' at the end.

Think of it as a blessing in disguise that he chose to end things with u sooner than later. U will look back on this time and be grateful that things didn't work out as u will find someone more worthy of ur time and efforts

Hugs

Xoxo

[kayc]

The grief may affect how they are but it doesn't excuse it. I'm sorry, I've lived through grief as bad or worse than any of them and I haven't behaved like that to my loved ones.

[Pollara]

yeah you are right! Even if he misunderstood something he could have just tell to others that things didn't work between us finally and not try to put the blame on me. I mean even if he really believes that, you don't say that to our common friends.

I kind of feel sad of all the 3,5 months I spend trying to justify him and giving him excuses.

At least he said that he knows that he has been selfish towards me. You don't say. It would have been also better to admit the actual reasons.

Well I just ended up in the conclusion that he needed to find an excuse to himself in order to break up with me, because he cannot even admit it to himself that he was the problem.

But I would prefer to tell me at least that we won't be never again be together rather than leave an open possibility. I guess he just wants to avoid conflict.

Well the other problem is that he is still kind and things towards me if I speak to him. He is so kind that he becomes coward in order to keep his kindness. He didn't tell me immature to my face (although I would have preferred him to do it). Towards me he says he is sorry, and how selfish he is but he doesn't want me to wait and he really doesn't know, but he has no energy towards everything and other bull shits!

[kayc]

I figure, in the end, I'm glad I'm not married to a coward.

[plum]

Quick question,

I have not replied to my guy's MSG and its coming to a week. This is the first time that I have ignored his MSG. And he can take a day or two to reply to mine but always does.

Im not sure if he realizes that I've now left for my hols. I told him what day I was leaving but obviously he didn't care enuf or forgot and didn't even text me Bon voyage.

Do u think I should text back or until he makes further attempt at contacting me leave it?

I'm currently trying to decide if I want to cut him out of my life all together and never get in touch again vs sending him a sincere letter or tell him all the stuff that's been on my mind. The outcome may be the same at the end of the day

[kayc]

I'm leaning towards not contacting him, let him wonder about you, but in the end, I think you should do that which makes YOU feel most comfortable.

[Pollara]

Well in my opinion do what you want to do In order not to have regrets. In the end you will know that you did your best. Of course he might remember all these after all these pass and feel guilt towards the way he behaved but this is not that bad in my opinion.we are not saints anyway

When I learnt about my immaturity I found him in the chat and I asked him but I also told him what I felt all these 3 months. Now I don't have any regrets. I thought that I was very patient and at least we will be in good terms after the end. Well in fact we will be if we come to face each other, but I thought that everything went very convenient regarding me and even our breaking up was very convenient to him. So I decided to load him with some guilt. I know that ok this characterization of mine might have been on the spear of the moment but I really don't care since it is unfair towards a girl that didn't ask anything from him and put aside her feelings. I also know that this might have limited my chances of getting him back, but I really don't care anymore. So I told him what I was feeling all these months.

By the way to the rest of our common friends he told that we broke up due to distance. So I guess he just tries to find excuses in order not to say that he is still grieving, but it is funny since I don't have an official excuse.

[kayc]

You feel better for having told him how you feel and don't have any regrets so I'd have to say you handled it the right way for you...in the end, that is what is important, that we be true to ourselves.

[Pollara]

yeah I know that for some this might be a step backwards for him coming back. But it's ok because I told everything that I hold so many months and now I am ok with it whether he is coming back or not. He knows what I felt and how unfair he was with me (or at least he will know in the future) so I don't care anymore.

My ex called me yesterday to see how things are going between us so I told him about the immature thing and he was mad. He told me that my "boyfriend" don't have right sense of judge at all and it I could be blamed for everything else rather but immaturity. And also that when his friend met him (yeah for some reasons I have a lot of commons friends with my previous ex too) they told him that they found my current ex kind of immature but he didn't tell me anything all this time because he didn't want to sound bitter or something.

[kayc]

I have let Jim know that he didn't handle things right with me either, and in the nearly three years since, he's never admitted having done wrong to me, although in an offhand sort of joking way he's alluded to it. (like telling me he asked his roommate if I threw his stuff on the lawn after I got his break up note via Fed Ex...that shows me he knew he had it coming for me to do that which is a sort of admittance, but not an apology). In order for a relationship to move forward, we have to have honesty. When they're in the throes of grief is not the time to address it, but at some point down the road it needs to happen.

[Pollara]

Well, what I told him hadn't done anything to do on how he handled things rather on how I did like "I put aside all my selfishness in order for him to feel better even if I felt neglected because I thought it was more serious matter than our relationship. It is just that I cannot buy it that he left me in order not to wait for him, but there must have been another reason and if there is any possibility of us getting back together and he can be honest with it and I won't mind or cut him out of my life if he doesn't". That was pretty much the meaning. What I got was of course a denial of what he have said to others (I didn't want to put the matter about immaturity directly because it wasn't said to me) and that he really doesn't know, he cannot make a right assessment, he doesn't think clearly, he even thought of taking antidepressants, that he thanks me for my help and for caring about him, but he doesn't need any help and that he is really sorry about being selfish.

The only thing I can think of his denial (the fact that he doesn't tells me the truth) is that he wants to avoid conflict.

But you know it is fun that there are a lot of common friends now that they know that I am immature or that we break up due to distance reasons and I don't know anything. Also, if really those were the reasons, shouldn't he come and discuss it with me? How can you break up with someone because you have a problem with his/her character but never tell it to him/her? How come you say the one day to common friends that we are doing great (while we are not talking) and the other that I was immature? I mean these things don't make sense. And KayC you know I got lot of apologies from my guy, but what should I do them? At the end of the day he might not even believe those apologies. His ingratitude on how I handled his matter and his blaming me for immaturity were enough.

My psychologists friends tell me not to blame him and not to take him seriously because of his wrong judge because he really cannot think right at the moment and he is angry towards everyone and maybe at that time he was angry with me and took something that I did that under normal circumstances wouldn't care lot and make an excuse in order to have for the break up. But you know I really don't blame him for his wrong assessments -not anymore- rather than he didn't respect me and told to our common friends these things. He could have also gone with the distance thing with them too. I found rather ungrateful to tell such a thing to common friends for a girl that she put him over everything. (and even the distance is fun for those who know that I would return back in some months, but it's ok is the easy excuse and I don't feel offended about it).

[kayc]

I don't think any of us blame them for being too clouded to think right, I think what's hard for us is the lack of candor with us. Jim blames it all on the grief he went through yet doesn't apologize or accept responsibility for what he did to me and I think that's necessary if we were to move forward, but how it is, that's not happening. I do still love him but there's more to consider than that. I can't be with someone too weak to stand up to his mother for me, too uncommunicative to explain all he was feeling about our relationship, and I'm not so sure it was all the grief in spite of his denials. I would have to know it wouldn't happen again and I can't be assured that because how has he demonstrated change to me?

I know we'll all be okay here, and we're super people that deserve better than this.

[Pollara]

I hope so KayC. I don't want to end up like Jenna of thinking a guy after 30 years. Sorry Jenna, I am not saying it in any offending way, but I guess this will cause you a great deal of stress that I couldn't even imagine it!

I am trying these days to focus on doing other things but it is quite a difficult. I have difficulties even focusing on my job and then I am thinking that my ex is probably getting through the same but 100 times more intense than me.

In any case the only solution I can think of is making a program and try to stick to it even if I don't know. Otherwise, if I don't make this program, I will end up thinking over it again and again. And you know all this time I was pretty sure that I did the right thing, but lately even started questioning this. Like I say that I should have tried to talk to him more about his matter (although I know it was evident that he didn't want it) or that I should have gone to the funeral or returned for summer. At that time he had just returned from his trip here and he was more distant than before so I thought that it would be better not to go. But how could I know since he didn't know himself. Then I am saying that if I had gone I would have prevented his depression etc.

But what my friends are saying (probably trying to comfort me) is that if I went there and things didn't finally work out, he would never try it again, but now there is a slight chance that he will try it after his healing. On the other side there are some friends of mine that told me that the problem is distance itself and if I don't return at some point there is no chance of us getting back together because I should approach him in a friendly way that I cannot do it from here.

I really started to wondering, because all of us we had an ldr, were there any cases that they were together and this thing happened? I am thinking that this distance might have been the problem itself. I mean all the stories I have read, there was distance relationship related.

In any case I will have to make a program and followed whether I like it or not in the beginning and then stick to it until I forget

[kayc]

I think it's true, it helps to have a plan and stick to it.

My first love (we were engaged and he broke off with me, no explanation) it took me years to get completely over. The first couple of years were, of course, the worst, but it was a long time before I could think of him without hurting. We reacquainted after 28 years and he asked me to marry him, made hits on me, etc. but I'm not interested now. We see each other once in a while as friends but it's interesting how you really can get completely over someone. After all this time he says it was his mom that broke us up...well I don't want anyone that weak an spineless or wishy washy. Do I think people can change? Yes but not usually that much. I would have to see it demonstrated as words alone don't mean that much to me and you know what? I see the same person he always was.

[Pollara]

These days I am doing pretty fine I can tell. I believe that in a month from now I will be totally OK. I still thinking him from times to times but I cannot think of any future together or something, I don't hold any grudge against him and I don't care whether to return to my country or not. But today I received a phone call from one of our common friends and she told me that she heard about our breaking up and that my ex told her pretty much the same things that he told to me, and that in the future we might be together etc. I really didn't pay any attention to it cause I cannot find any reason of holding my hopes up and then she told me that he had a panic attack and I kind of felt worried. It is kind of sad that even if someday we will be back together, I will be the person that didn't support him when he needed it the most. But it is also kind of sad that I cannot help him neither as a friend. And I felt sad in a different way. not the way as I did before or after the breaking up. But that he feels so terrible and I cannot help him

[kayc]

I understand, Pollara. Interestingly enough, Jim told me recently "I love you" and called me "Baby"...I don't put a lot of stock by it because it's actions that count to me. I view him as a dear person and a friend, but it's not the same as it was nearly three years ago when he broke up with me.