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Guest Vickie O'Neil

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Guest Vickie O'Neil

So here I am on the website...again. I went to Mom's for Christmas...my last Christmas with Pat was there 1 1/2 years ago. Bad driving weather, I missed the exit on the freeway..& became a nervous wreck. I kept imagining that Pat was sitting next to me, & I took his Suburban....& Pat would never have let me miss the exit, but dense fog & rain, etc...& I was truly dreading the trip. Should have been 2 hours Max on the road, 3 hours later I pulled in to Mom's...white knuckled.

I made it through dinner, dishes, etc., & finally the kitchen cleared out & I stared at Pat's empty chair..& the tears started flowing. Mom came in & asked what was wrong...& I told her. Not one person mentioned Pat...or said we really miss Pat, & perhaps they were all just trying to be really kind..but how could they not remember, or care? It would have meant a lot to me...if someone had acknowledged his absence....simply said we miss Pat. Talking about Mom's new jewelry, admiring my niece's irritating Ipod, & discussing my sister's cracked Corian..seems like so much phony Polite Chit Chat.

I recall so clearly our last Christmas...we were dead broke from Hospital bills...& I made Gingerbread houses from Kits for my family...decorated each one differently for the recipient...Pat watched me work on them, & I drove to Mom's with Pat...it was our Very Last Road Trip Together..we loved to Travel, & our very last Christmas, too.

Jan. 1st is my Dad's death anniversary, but I will probably be the only one of us "kids" that remember. I've learned this...that there are only a few people in this life on Earth...who's hearts are bound to mine with a silver cord...& when you find them you better love them for all they are worth...Time on Earth is short, but Love Never Ends!

Vickie

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Vickie,

It’s dreadful when the people we are around, and are ones we expect to be able to acknowledge loss, fail to do so. I have witnessed this inconsiderate behavior repeatedly, and have come to realize that, for the most part, human beings are afraid of death. It takes the reality of losing some one very close to you (in our cases the person who shared our intimate nest) to truly understand this type of loss. It takes death itself to understand how precious life is. It takes death to be able to recognize and offer expressions of loss to others, and not to ignore loss with silence.

We have learned through the death of our mates, our partners, and our spouses what this pain is like; and we are therefore the first to be able to reach out to others and talk about another's loss. Vickie, you will, in all likelihood, be one of the few, if not the only person, to verbally reach out to others and in words acknowledge your fathers death anniversary - because you have been there - and you know the type of pain this type of loss causes. You will be the one to tell that person who shared that intimate nest with your father how sorry you are about losing him. This type of loss binds us to others who have experienced a similar type of loss – forever.

Moreover, you are very correct when you say, “love never dies." Love, is the one and only thing that death cannot take from us.

Love and peace to you – and all on this site,

John – Dusky is my handle on here

Love you Jack – and Dusky

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Don't you know if you stick your head in the sand and don't see anything then it didn't happen. If you mention their name you have to acknowledge that they lived.

Even our marriage vows say until death do us part. I'm sorry but I'm still married to Tom with my whole heart and death cannot rob me of that.

I wanted to do something so much to acknowledge him through the holidays but everyone else seemed too sad about it so I had to just have my own little talk to him about him. If people don't let us talk and cry without feeling guilty, how will we ever get over this?

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vickie - john is so right in what he says. we're all in a very different place then most. when joe was sick, a friend would come around the shop every other day or so to check on me. he had oral cancer 8 years ago, and was given a terminal sentence. he came through, and came through with an incredible appreciation of what life is about. he told me that most of us go through life, some make a statement that's remembered by a lot of people, but most of us basically live our lives. but those of us left remember them with memories, and love, and that's never gone. my mother's birthday is tomorrow - it's just basically my brother and myself left to remember her. but we do, with all our hearts. your father will always live inside of you, your love and your memories are yours, and by them he'll never be forgotten, and the same goes for pat. remembering for us is hurtful, very hurtful, I know, but not necessarily all bad. Marsha

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Vickie, I don`t mean to turn your post into a discussion of religion, but please allow me to start this way. In my Church, a person is never forgotten as long as someone within the congregation is still able to remember them. The lives of our loved ones are celebrated throughout the year. Special occasions and memorials and especially on the anniversaries of their death. Their names are spoken aloud for everyone to hear and note at these times and we are comforted in knowing they will always be missed throughout our lives. They will always be a part of our parish. Because my Church does this, I have been given the opportunity, the right, to celebrate my wife`s life; all that she was, all that she meant to me is part of me. When I leave the building, I don`t feel that I have to put these thoughts and feelings away. Sharing my life with her is what has made me who I am today, I want everyone to know and love her as I did.

What I am saying is that if you want others to acknowledge Pat, the existance of his life and all he meant to you; it may be necessary for you to let them know this. Talk about him openly, remember him and tell stories of things you shared and the ways you knew how much he loved you. If no one else gets the message that it is okay to talk about him, then at least you won`t feel that he is forgotten. People talk openly about my wife now, to me and amongst themselves. Yes, we all understand that sometimes the tears will roll down my face, and sometimes I will need to step outside for a few minutes for a good cry, but it is all okay. It all helps to work through this. I want to know how much everyone else loved her, I want others to talk about her. Setting an example is my way of letting them know what I need.

If nothing else, then maybe at least someone will learn what it means to be in a loving relationship such as we have all known.

((( :wub: )))

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Vickie,

I want to echo what Fred said - talk openly about Pat with your family and friends. I used to be reluctant to bring Janet up in conversation because I felt it made some people feel uneasy, but I got over that. I don't want her to be forgotten, and the best way to make sure she isn't is to keep putting her name out there.

Mike

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Hi Vickie,

I want to echo both Fred and Mike. I talk about Lou all the time. I don't care who likes it or who doesn't. I will remember him and will tell anyone who is listening (and even those who don't) as much about him as possible.

I have one dear friend who talks about Lou every time we are together. She loved him so much and thought he was so special and is not afraid to tell me over and over again. I just love her for it.

You know, my family members rarely bring up Lou's name either. They try so hard to include me in things and to be kind but I really think they are afraid of brining up his name. You know which family member is the least shy about it? My 6 year old grandson! (Well, he is really not blood related but as far and he and I are concerned I am his Mee Maw). He mentions his Paa Paw all the time and I am amazed at some of the things he says. Children have a special way of thinking about death even though it seems as though they can't really comprehend it. He is never afraid to say, "Mee Maw, I sure do miss Paa Paw!". He told me once, "Its ok to be sad that Paa Paw is gone Mee Maw! You can talk to him; he will hear you but you won't be able to hear what he says back; he is too far away. But he sees you and he knows you love him and miss him." Out of the mouth of babes!

Fred,

I am not Catholic but a co-worker who is a very devout Catholic and one of the kindest souls I know did something very special for me. On the Sunday after what would have been my husband's 67th birthday, he arranged for a special Mass offered for the repose of my dear Lou's soul. To hear his name spoken by the Father and to have him honored in such a special way meant so much to me.

Speak as often as you wish of your loved one. Keep their memory alive! God Bless!

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Vickie,

For the last three years, my family has lost loved ones and I've made every effort to keep their name and their spirit alive at our family gatherings. For my grandma and then my husband I re-purposed some of the special things I had of theirs and gave them as gifts. We all cried as they were opened, but we also hugged and laughed and talked about them. This year, my young nephew was buried just over a week ago and it affected everyone, including the cousins that are all in their twenties. I was so glad my brother and his wife were there. It is difficult to see the sadness on their faces, but we cried with them, hugged each other and listened as they talked and we were able to show our support. It was a niece's boyfriend that made things to remind us all of my nephew's smile and favorite saying. The feeling was mutual, it couldn't be ignored. It is painful, but necessary to walk through this together. We loved him. He touched all our lives. We are left here, together and broken hearted.

I didn't give the same gifts to my husband's family last year, because I was certain they wouldn't forget. Yet, no one mentioned Bob's name for the entire day. When I did, the subject quickly changed. I didn't understand it but for the first time I'd realized they had lost their brother and how horrible it must have felt. I'm sure they would have rather had him there than myself. I just got home from their gathering for this year. I knew it was up to me to talk about Bob. So I did. I gave them little glimpses of the things I missed. There wasn't a lot of response, but this time I could tell they listened. My hope is that in time, they will feel free to say his name, to acknowledge their loss and share his stories. I used to think they were trying to protect me from crying. Now, I think it is for their own protection. They don't know what to do with the emotion.

I watched an older gentleman in church today shuffle ever so slowly along with his wife at his arm, gently holding him. It brought instant tears. It reminded me of my last date with Bob. We went to a MN Wild hockey game and he was really quite ill and not moving very fast. As we stepped out into the sub-zero temps to walk to our car, the most he could muster was a slow shuffle. Everyone else passed us like we were standing still. I snuggled in and wrapped my arm in his. For me, time stood still and the minutes that we walked and laughed in the cold will be the most joyful of my life. I kept it my secret today. But I have to believe, his brothers are keeping many more of their own. I'll keep going there, and maybe someday, we'll be able to share some of them together.

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Guest Vickie O'Neil

John, Marsha, Fred, Mary Linda, Mike, & Rosemary,

Thanks for responding...just because you ignore Death does not make that person any Less Real...Nor the Love that We Feel..less Real. It is a visible palpitating Silver Cord in my mind, it winds around my heart...right through the universe to my Loved one's Heart.

My family is very religious,,,in the wrote & reciting of prayer's...but I don't think they will ever really get it..what real Love is about...They love the Word's but not in the Actions ..I'm opposite..I love the Actions...not the Words. & When you find those few People in your life...that you really Love...Dog Gone, hold on, & Love them come hell or high water...AMEN!

Vickie

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Vickie,

I went through the same thing only with my husband that I am losing to divorce. On Christmas Eve as we sat at the dinner table and I looked over and saw his empty chair, I lost it...I started crying and had to get up and leave the room. The guys didn't know what to do but my daughter followed me into the next room and held me as I cried. It is so important that people acknowledge our loss and what we are going through. With you, you will remember and love your husband, always. With me, people think I should be over him already because "after all, he is a heel", he is living with someone else, why would I mourn him? I don't know, only that I do. I thought it was bad enough trying to get support from others when I lost a husband to death, but I am finding even less support in my loss to divorce. I know one thing, it has developed empathy in me for others in what they are going through.

Years ago, I talked to my mom about my dad, I brought up his name (he's been gone for over 27 years now) and she told me how much she appreciated my willingness to talk about him. She said others want to pretend like he never existed, and it's so important to her that he be remembered. How could he not be remembered, he's my dad! I learned something then, while society thinks it's easier if they bury their head in the sand, quite the opposite is true, it is in remembering and keeping alive that helps us accept what's taken place, not in ignoring as if they never existed.

I like what Fred says about how his church gives opportunity to remember, I wish that mine did that. I don't know if they have Orthodox churches here, but it is compelling...

You are right, Vickie, in wanting your husband to be remembered...he should be. You're also right in the light of what we're going through and what we've lost, jewelry and Ipods just don't seem all that important.

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Kayc, I'm so sorry about your divorce. You're right, it's mourning the death of your marriage, and you love your husband even if there are good reasons for the marriage to end, the love is still there.

When my ex and I divorced, I was devastated. Just one friend who was also divorced recognized the pain and said that I was mourning the death of the marriage. That did help. Over the years between, my ex and I, with much difficulty but much love, managed to establish a friendship and deal with the problems in our past. Ultimately, it was a blame-free divorce because he was gay, but there was still hurt involved. We dealt with it, and he was still the man I had loved since I was 18, and when we did establish a close friendship, it greatly enriched my life. Sadly, two years later he died of liver disease. And I was confronted with people who said, Why do you care, he was just your ex? People can be so clueless.

I found a wonderful grief therapist and grief group, which helped a lot. My sister was helpful and supportive, and my ex's friends and boyfriend totally adopted me. But the rest of my family, my parents, other sister, and brothers-in-law, were very unsupportive, and don't like it when I talk about my ex. I persisted. I needed to talk. And I know that, being conservative, they don't like it that I am a strong supporter of gay rights. I persisted with that, because I knew what they have only just found out this holiday season -- my niece just came out as gay.

Divorce, for whatever reason, is as shattering as death. Personally, I find it hard sometimes to believe the world could be so cruel as to make me lose him twice, to divorce and then death.

Ann

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AnnC,

You are a remarkable person. I remember you telling different pieces of your story over the course of the years you have been a member on this site. I have seen a number of times you reference your connection to the gay community, which I assume evolved over the years due to your ex's sexual preference. I have always read your posts with great interest because of the wonderful perspective you bring to this group and the compassion you have consistently voiced on this site for members of my “other family” – the gay community. This site has always made me feel welcome – regardless of my sexual preference. I want to thank you for the perspective, and for the tolerance, you so eloquently voice in your posts.

Love and peace,

John – Dusky is my handle on here

Love you Jack – and Dusky

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Ann,

I never forgot you even when you were absent from this site because of your tremendous capacity for understanding. Very few would continue to love their ex as you have and if that makes others uncomfortable, oh well!! You have found that the love and caring transends convention, and I have found that too. People tell me I should hate John and need therapy for still loving him, and I should be angry. I don't like what he's done, it's only been compounded by how he's gone about everything...he's lied to me, used me, manipulated me, and abandoned me. Even now when it's obvious I can't continue "as is", he will not cooperate so it's costing me so much more in stress, time, and money, to proceed legally. However, with or without his cooperation, everything will eventually be settled and behind us. It is too painful for me to see him with someone else, I have no desire to do that, the pain inside of my heart is bursting, but I will always care about him...why I can't begin to understand. Maybe it's just what happens when you're bonded together in marriage...at least for some of us...too bad he hasn't felt the same way about me.

I met someone this weekend that also experienced losing her husband to divorce and then to death, and she teared up when she spoke of him...you are not alone in feeling that double loss.

Take care,

Love,

KayC

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Here it is another night of almost 3AM and I'm still not asleep, but it doesn't look like I'm the only one.

True love is love and it does not matter if you are straight , gay, Caucasian, Eurasian, Martian or anything else.

Dusky, I want you to know that I read your posts for probably a couple of months when I first came on here and then all the sudden the light bulb went on that you were gay. All I saw was someone so in love, that was hurting. I have several gay friends and get so upset when people talk negatively about them. I do not like heterosexual people hanging all over each other any better than I do gays and I think that is the only vision some people have of gay people. I think they get a bad wrap and Ann I think it is wonderful that you can still feel this caring love that you do.

Kay, your friend just needs to keep her mouth shut and leave you alone. She has no idea what you felt for John. I don't know if this is the lady that was having parties( I think it was you that posted about that) or what but as long as you are functioning and not just sitting in a fetal position you are trying to overcome your new grief. I guess some people can turn emotions off but some of us can't. I know in my grief support some of them said they never had let their loved ones see them cry. That they went on day to day like nothing out of the ordinary was happening. Tom would have known that was a big fat lie anyway, because he knows how emotional I am. You can look at the glass as have empty or half full but it's still just a partial glass of whatever. In other words we are never all going to agree on somethings so if she is a true friend she will just accept the fact that you are going to disagree on this and support you no matter what.

Well, I'd better quit babbling again and try to get some sleep before the alarm goes off.

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Thanks, everybody, for your loving support. It's so wonderful to be able to say how I really feel and be accepted, not looked at sideways with people wondering why I still cared about him, and wondering if I "made him gay".

KayC, I did go through a period of lots of anger. I think it's a natural response to being hurt. Whatever the reason, my husband did want a divorce, and that hurt. He was struggling with coming out back in the 1980's, when there was less acceptance than there is now, not that there is that much acceptance even now. He hid parts of his life from me at that time. I knew he was lying, and that was bad, too.

When you get divorced, you mourn the loss of the marriage, and even if it is, or has become, a bad marriage, you still mourn the marriage you thought you had, or you hoped you would have. We had a great relationship during the years we dated and the first several years we were married, but when his orientation became too strong for him to ignore, things became very difficult.

However, after divorce, through all my anger and bitterness and pain, he kept contacting me and assuring me it was never my fault, that he had truly loved me, and he apologized for all he put me through. I wasn't ready to hear it, but he persisted. Although he was afraid I would hate him if I found out he was gay, he kept in touch, knowing that I would eventually know because he was now openly gay. I did find out, and confronted him, and then he was honest with me. I actually was rather relieved, realizing it wasn't a personal rejection. We had our ups and downs over the years, but we kept in touch, at least minimally, and then were very close again during the last couple of years of his life.

The fact that we were able to maintain this kind of relationship was due a great deal to him, that he was so supportive of me, and so loving and respectful of my feelings. He wanted me to meet his boyfriend, but I found that too difficult, and he understood. I can't express how wonderfully he treated me. The hardest thing was that I still wanted to be married to him, but that was not in the cards. I would not have wanted him to have to live his life pretending to be someone he was not.

I learned from him that the heart is big enough to hold more than one person. I thought after divorce that I would need to stop loving him in order to move on and love someone else. But when we each fell in love again, it was different and it didn't invalidate our feelings for each other. I began to feel he was family rather than my husband.

But a part of me has never forgotten that he was my husband, and I did feel widowed when he died. His boyfriend became my friend -- he's a wonderful man, and we supported each other through the grief. We joke that we would be scratching each other's eyes out if he were still alive, but who could better understand the grief now that he is gone than someone who also loved him?

And his close friends, a lesbian couple, have become close friends of mine. They have been of great support as my niece has been struggling with her own coming out. I feel so honored that I was the first family member (after her mother, my sister) my niece felt able to come out to, because she knew I would have no problem with it.

Dusky, I am always so touched by your love and devotion for Jack. I know that is how my friend Bruce feels about my ex. Love is love, and grief is grief, no matter what society prefers to think. As for my connection to the gay community, you are right that it evolved over time. I work for a college, where the atmosphere is more tolerant, and my boss, two of our vice presidents, and numerous faculty and staff members are fairly openly gay. Plus my sister and my niece -- this is evidently a theme in my life!

This is long, but it's such a treat to be able to tell our story to sympathetic "ears"!

Ann

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