kayc Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 Laura, I know this is a sore spot for you but I know Mitch and he is not the kind to exclude someone, he was merely trying to abbreviate. He's apologized that it upset you, I hope you can accept that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 Thanks, Mitch, I appreciate that, and even though I don't know you personally, you seem kind, warm and supportive... Nevertheless, this sentence seems to exclude... "The members here at the Spouse forum are the select few. The ones who were in a relationship with their one and only true soul mate"... but perhaps the way it is worded is not what you really meant, and that happens to anyone. I frequently say right when I mean left and everyone does. And at this point any of us may be oversensitive to various things... Laura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mittam99 Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 Laura, you are taking that totally out of context. That remark was in direct reference to Patty saying people don't understand our pain. The couples that are in this forum are different than the average couple. We were soul mates and that's something no one else would understand unless they experienced that. That is all I was referring to. "Select few" is quite true in that context. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayc Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 In the past we have referred to those here on the forum as the select few as in distinguishing us here from the rest that haven't sought out the support we have in joining this forum. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gin Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Mitch, I have always found you to be loving and caring to all of us here. I think we all know that the "select group" are those of us who really feel we were special soul mates. Thanks for being here. Gin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 I understand that it is no one's intent to exclude me or anyone else, but "the select few" is the language of exclusion. "The ones who were in a relationship with their one and only true soul mates" is rather specific, especially when you string it all together in the same context as "Spouse forum" and "select few. My dad and I were not soul mates, but I think I share many of the same issues that most of you do. Sometimes things do not apply to me. For example, when someone is posting about the empty place in the bed, I step back and don't comment, because this is not part of my experience. Nevertheless, I believe that I am on the same path from a significant loss. I have felt comfort, acceptance, affection and support from everyone here, and I did not mean to offend anyone by commenting on the language. I cannot even begin to say how helpful this site has been to me in my grief journey. I would also be quick to point out that I have a long history of being excluded in multiple scenarios has made me sensitive to exclusion and even hints of exclusion. I was also trained as a social worker to be vigilant about language that might seem exclusionary. They really worked us over! Anyway, I just think it's worth it for anyone to think about language and how it may inadvertently come across. I am relatively new and don't have the history to understand that some words here have special meanings that no one could guess. Because "The Spouse forum" sounds like "Spouses only"; to say "This forum" would probably work if you wanted to shorten it, or "Spouses etc" would be less cumbersome than the whole thing. "The select few" sounds like a few who were selected for some reason, and when you specify that means "soul mates" it starts to sound pretty specific. My dad and I were not soul mates, but his loss has been devastating to me. I also realize that you may not agree with my comments about language usage, and that's ok too. A forum is inherently for discussion, and we may not always all agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 ...the only problem is that either I don't belong here by that definition, or I am claiming that my father is my soul mate, which I am definitely not doing. Or maybe there is a clique that is the special few within the forum to which the others in the forum do not belong. That doesn't sound good... Either the words are deliberately meant to exclude someone like me, or they are not the best words, which is what I am suggesting. I have really lost my entire family. Who can say that I am suffering less-or more- than someone who lost their mate, but still has children, parents, grandchildren, siblings, or some kind of family? I have known two different women who found themselves in impossible marriages to men who had substance abuse and serious psychological problems, and as they were planning on leaving, their husbands committed suicide. I'm sure neither would say they lost their soul mate, but they really really suffered-in part because they were blamed for the suicide. 4 hours ago, Gin said: ..I think we all know that the "select group" are those of us who really feel we were special soul mates... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty65 Posted July 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 off the current topic... just wanting to connect. kinda been deteriorating and isolating, and hard to go on with this "new" life. hard to have any desire to anymore. i just miss you but havent been able to post. much love, patty 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwenivere Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Patty, everyone here understands. Your loss is still so raw. Luckily Marty keeps the place open 24/7. Do take care. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 36 minutes ago, Patty65 said: off the current topic... just wanting to connect. kinda been deteriorating and isolating, and hard to go on with this "new" life. hard to have any desire to anymore. i just miss you but havent been able to post. much love, patty In what way are things deteriorating? Are you still having problems with your business partner? It sounds like you feel very discouraged... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 11 hours ago, Clematis said: I have felt comfort, acceptance, affection and support from everyone here, and I did not mean to offend anyone by commenting on the language. Maybe we should not worry so much about semantics and allow people to express their grief however they can or choose to without reading so much into it. People are hurting and the last thing any of us needs is to start censuring our emotions, thoughts and words lest we offend someone inadvertently. We are all here for comfort, acceptance, affection and support. Let's focus on allowing people to express themselves without needing to worry about whom they may offend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mittam99 Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Thank you for those articulate words Brad. I've had a sleepless night, digesting Laura's over-analyzation of my heartfelt words. Shortening the name of the forum in my post was simply that and nothing more. "Select few" was only to tell Patty that we were in a special relationship with our mate. Absolutely nothing I said related to anything other than Patty's original question. I am fully for inclusion and mentioned that in a reply to Laura. I hope we can get back to what this forum is about. We're all trying to cope with a devastating loss. All of us here are hurting and all of us here are looking for comfort, hope and a sense that things might get better. Our lives have been changed forever, and not in a good way. I love this forum. Members here have been amazing to me in the time I've been here. I've tried my best to help others with wisdom I've gained on my difficult grief journey. I beg you Laura to please accept that I am an honest person and I never intended to cause you (or anyone else) emotional harm by referring to this forum as the "Spouse" forum. Please accept that I honestly am for inclusion. I don't know what else to say or do. Mitch 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Mitch, the last thing I want to do is to give you or anyone a sleepless night. Working in a written format is sometimes challenging because all you have is the words and no body language or voice tone and inflection to help your real meaning. If we were in a car, you were driving and I was giving you directions and I pointed to the left and said "turn right-right there after that blue house", you would know what I meant, or would at least wonder about it. But if I wrote you directions that said "turn right after the blue house" you would just turn right after the blue house. Unless you didn't really need the directions anyway and you also know that I barely know my right from my left. We are just having a little discussion about semantics on the side of what we are are really doing (dealing with grief). I believe that words have meaning and power. Using words that say the opposite of what you mean can be confusing, and all I am doing is saying that. I am not upset (as I was when asked why I was posting on the Spouse forum since I had not lost my spouse), and I am really not trying to upset anyone else. I am only suggesting that thinking about wording is worth the effort because it's all the reader really has, unless they know you well and know that you may say the opposite of what you mean. Brad, I am totally with you that this is a safe place where we don't have to censor our thoughts and feelings. Nevertheless, I think it is worth taking a little care with the wording so that we don't inadvertently offend someone. All of us do that all that all the time...we don't refer to people of given races by certain words, and we don't talk about the mailman anymore-it's the mail carrier (it's kind of weird if you are a female mailman - like a female male man?) We used to use the words "man" and "men" instead of "people"..."to all men everywhere" for example. I think it was a to shorten more then exclude women, but you don't see "men" used as an exact synonym for "people" like you used to. You can certainly use the same words and say that this is the "Spouse forum" for the "select few who have lost their one and only true soul mate". I am only pointing out that this language looks very exclusionary-it sounds like "all others keep out", although I totally believe that is not what you mean. I have found comfort, acceptance, affection and support here and it has been so helpful to me I cannot even begin to express how important and helpful it has been to me. All I am doing is suggesting that if we say the opposite of what we mean, some people may be confused and others may be upset and turn away...and I don't think that is what any of us want. We may have to just agree that we disagree on this word usage...and it's nothing more than that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayc Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Patty, I am sorry you're having such a hard time. You're in my thoughts. I know that trying to go on and adjust to this new life is really hard. You'll get there, little by little. Hang in there. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 Patty, are you still having problems with your new partner? I know you're really struggling to keep your business and deal with some really aggravating situations along with your grief. It would be really great if we could take a vacation and let a lot of things go while grieving...it's really tough to add that to what would be a heavy load by itself. I know I feel like I have way too much stress and stuff going on right now, and you do too! Anyway, we are here for you and interested in anything you want to share about what's going on out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty65 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 22 hours ago, Clematis said: In what way are things deteriorating? Are you still having problems with your business partner? It sounds like you feel very discouraged... hi laura, i guess it is bad depression. im going and going a million hours a day, i hate home, and work -- i just don't know why i'm doing it anymore. kinda feel purposeless. and the weird thing is -- yeah still an adjustment with the business partner - the business is growing rapidly. and i don't think i care or even want it too. but shhhhhh.... i can't tell a soul. not that i have anyone in my real life that i have to tell anyway. yeah, a giant eyore. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Oh Patty, I feel for you...you are working so hard you are exhausted, and you are grieving, which is exhausting in of itself. I think that feeling is part of exhaustion- the "I just don't know why I am doing it anymore". Grief can make you wonder if there is any purpose in anything-even in your life, because a big part of what gave your life purpose is forever gone. Sometimes the only thing you can do is just put one foot in front of the other on the path you're on-and you're doing a great job of the putting one foot in front of the other. I used to do a lot of hiking in the Grand Canyon, mostly alone. Later, looking back on it I got this idea that life is like hiking out of the Canyon alone. In some parts you have a great view and you can not only see where you are going, but where you are going, and you feel fabulous about your accomplishments. But there are other times when you have no view-in front of you or behind-and it's steep and it's hot and you have no idea when it will ever end or if you will even make it. And then you come around a corner and can see the giant hill you just climbed and you know you did something amazing. But you're not there yet. Neither am I. But we will be. Somehow you will get through this, even though it's hard to even imagine. I can't imagine how I will get through the next year, finishing up on my condo so I can move back in, finishing up with my father's estate, getting rid of enough stuff so that what is left of mine and my father's stuff will fit into my own condo, going back to work and working professionally as a school psychologist and school counselor very full time while still dealing with the estate, possibly losing most of my income halfway through the semester, and all the other unknowns. But somehow I will get through it, even though I have no idea how (Oh yeah-one step after the other), and so will you. Somehow I will be painting flowers again next summer...it may be in Hawaii again, like I did the last two summers, and it may be three feet from my front door. But I'll be painting flowers new spring because it's what I do. And by the way, we are in your real life...Here is proof-I painted this last summer at the cactus garden at Kapiolani Community Community College at Diamond Head at Waikiki. That is my cat Lena, who is actually black, but here she is white, to go with the subtle colors of the desert rose. Hang in there Patty. You're doing it even if you don't feel it. I also feel like I'm stuck in quicksand, but no one else sees it like that. Laura 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayc Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Patty, Maybe as your business grows and you have a partner now, you can take a day off and go someplace (I like to go to the ocean) to clear your head, give yourself a different perspective on life. You've been working so hard, it has to have drowned out your grief to some extent, and you still have a lot of grief work to do that you haven't had time for. It's important to allow ourselves to experience the pain of each loss that comes with this big loss in order to get through it to the other side...the other side being what we built of our lives afterward, the "new normal" that we create. We start with a "new normal" that I consider more a "new reality"...it takes years to build a "new normal" that is tolerable, and finally, even desirable. Most of the people on this site are not there yet because it doesn't happen in any quick timetable. There's so much grieving to be done along the way! You have worked hard at keeping this business alive for Ron. Is there any part of it that you have done for YOU? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clematis Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 Hey Patty, How are you doing? I am very busy busting my butt, trying to stay alive by getting enough work done to survive this year, and I'm sure your are as well! On July 13, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Patty65 said: hi laura, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margm Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 On 7/11/2016 at 10:54 AM, Clematis said: He said he was too tired to put in the time and work it would require for a new relationship, Mama always said "marry in haste, repent in leisure." She knew Daddy two weeks, so I think a lot of times she would repeat some long ago quote because it fit her life. "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." That was her trying to sew for a tomboy. (I don't hear that word "tomboy" very often now). "A fine line between genius and insanity." I think she lived her quotes. She had a scholarship, fully paid, to a college and her mother was too worried about my mom's sanity to allow her to use it. So, she married Daddy instead. Human nature is a strange creature. You can say "never" and really mean it. If you do, don't talk to his friends, don't go to socials, try to just stay at home away from people. If Billy did not cause retribution, my kids would. There was only two Billy the Kids, and I was married to one of them. This is off topic, but Brad comes up as "guest" listing. I am missing the male participation some. Maybe it is just my computer as I am having to use my laptop. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyT Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 It's not your computer, Marg. Brad notified me yesterday morning that he wished to have his name removed from our membership list, so the posts he's left behind now appear as having been written by "Guest." As I told Brad many times, I truly appreciated and valued his presence and participation here, as did so many of our members, and I am very sorry to see him go ~ but I have complied with his request. I also told him that if ever he should decide to return, he will be welcomed with open arms and caring hearts ~ and I'll be first in line to welcome him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margm Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 I think sometimes we all have selfish emotions. I know mine are totally selfish. I lost another classmate a couple of weeks ago and it seems my disposition and feelings are usually on a downward spiral. My neighbor said that at our age we are going to lose friends. She had just lost a classmate the week before. With Billy's passing, I joined this group three days later.. It is as if we have a wound that is raw, nerves sticking out of, and my personality has taken a downhill runaway train. Sometimes it is like being in a pressure cooker knowing my daughter's health problems, my mom dying, my sister's feelings toward me for not keeping vigil by the bedside. It is like I have not faced Billy being gone. Being with my mother puts that raw wound nerves in hyper sense. I know what is expected of me and I just cannot cope like a "normal" person should. Sometimes being on this forum seems to keep the wound open and bleeding, but sometimes we get solace also. We just miss anyone who leaves, but they have to do what is best for them. I wish I had a sense of "what is best" for me. I think right now it is pure anxiety. We just wish some semblance of peace for each of us and a little happiness would be appreciated too.. We will miss you Brad. I have been to your part of the country with the RV. Loved reading about your hikes. Billy loved anything about the White Mountains. There is a Blue River and a Black River we had plans of camping on with the RV. I wish you peace. As an addendum, I don't wish anyone to think I was referring to Brad for selfish emotions. I was referring to mine for missing one of our forum members. Maybe congratulations on this step forward might be said instead. Sometimes it is like we are in quicksand and if there is a limb offered to pull us out, then I sure would accept it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty65 Posted July 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 (((hugs))) thanks laura & kayc -- yes, everyone here is trying to get me to take a day off. I've burned my arm 6x yesterday, looks awful, and too visible, no way to hide it. ughh. NOT on purpose, and not since the last time a month or so ago has it been this "out of sync" with accidents... Hard to connect with my body after the day before... An important chef who is a small, early investor of the shop and an early restaurant customer told me I should go to this food-service expo that he was going to on last Thursday on Oahu, a different island. Everyone thought it would be a get-away day for me. The thought of going on a plane without Ron etc. was repulsive and scary. I told everyone I couldn't, partner wanted me to go, but understood. I convinced my therapist I should not go. But then a day later I hated the idea that I was keeping myself from doing something valuable for the shop, and maybe I should get away. So I changed my mind. Mistake. By the time I got on the plane I was nearly hysterical, crying audibly the whole flight, with my face glued to the window so nobody could watch (the only tissue i had was the napkin from a drink of water). I don't cry in public in front of strangers!! By the time I arrived on Oahu my eyes were bright red and puffy and well, I managed to stop crying but we all know what that after-effect feels like for the rest of the day. It was a rough day that was informative but not extraordinarily valuable. I'm my own worse enemy. Soooooo exhausted of trying to hold on. a customer wanted me to go out for a glass of wine tonight, we had made arrangements. i like her and have no friends but there's just NO WAY i can do it, not after Thursday. Instead I will hide in the office here and hide my tears, go home, crawl under the covers, and check in with my therapist with whom I've set up a check-in call. That's the best I can do for now. I'm sorry I'm so out of touch with things here, and posting. I think about you guys all day, and think if you guys can hold on, somehow I can too. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margm Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, Patty65 said: and think if you guys can hold on, somehow I can too. Patty, we have to hold on. Honestly, with health issues, my mom and sister issues, daughter and son issues I miss Billy so much. I keep thinking if they had not called the ambulance for me the night I passed out then I could just be gone before Billy. Sometimes I just don't want to handle anymore. But, I didn't go, they did call the ambulance and they saved my life. Hooray. We are not having any fun are we? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty65 Posted July 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 10 hours ago, Marg M said: I think sometimes we all have selfish emotions. Yes, Marg, I've been feeling that big lately. Selfish. It doesn't help, I know that, it's just hard to not go there...?? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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