What If The Roles Were Reversed?

[marsha]

I think about this sometimes - what if it were me that died, and my husband still here? Knowing Joe, he'd probably be doing the same thing as me. Going in to make the bagels, working the shop, then coming home to the computer (he was the geek, not me), drinking a beer, and going to sleep. He always told me I was his "last wife" - (he was married at 19, had another relationship for 10 years), and that he would become a hermit if I went first. It's hard incorporating 2 into 1 - I mean the strength and knowledge of both, and now dealing with everything with one's own knowledge, plus what i've gleaned from 23 years of marriage. Does anyone remember Spock doing a mind meld from the original Star Trek? That's kind of like what I feel like. I know I'm capable, but sometimes I get scared that I'm going to screw up; that I've got to make really good decisions, financially, in particular. I've always been very good at making myself crazy, but now I don't have Joe to balance me. I'm trying, though!! Marsha

[kath]

I hear you loud and clear, Marsha. I had a meltdown just a few hours ago because I don't know how long I can continue to do everything myself. My neighbor heard me mid-rant and came to talk. Her question, "Who do you have to bounce these things off of?" The answer is no one. Every task, every decision, every responsibility falls on me and some days it is just too much.

I often wonder what Bob would have been like if I had gone first. I think I do better than he would much of the time. And I've heard that the 'strong' one is usually left behind. So, what are we supposed to do when we don't feel strong? I miss not having the balance I had with him in my life. And I am certain I screw up more often than not. I just hope it will get better. So, I'll keep trying as well! Kath

[fred]

Marsha, I have often thought of your question, I begged God to allow us to switch as my wife slipped farther and farther away. But now that I have had over a year and a half to reconsider; to live with this horrible nightmare which is our grief, I can see some wisdom in His decision. My wife was already suffering from the grief of losing her beloved father, she was just beginning to recover from the extreme stress she endured during the years at her job. I was the world to her, just as she was to me. I am not sure she would have survived this journey we all share here, maybe He does leave the stronger, maybe we have been left behind because there are still things He expects of us. My wife lived her entire life as a true Christian, it was obvious to everyone she met, there was not any unfinished business she needed to attend to. If anyone was ever prepared to meet God, it was her. I, on the other hand, have a long way to go. Someday I hope to figure out what it is that He wants of me. For the moment, I´ll just keep working on finding out who I am now. All we can do is to keep trying. For them, of course, and for us.

[Rosemary T]

Looks like we are all on the same page here! I know that Lou would not have done well at all without me. He would have constantly blamed himself and been positive that he was to blame for my death. It would not have mattered how I died, he would have found a way to hold himself responsible and would have been miserable. At first I kept thinking that God should have left him and taken me. Lou was the most wonderful, peaceful, loving, generous man. He found a way to be kind to everyone, even people that no one else could stand. He was a true gentleman and treated every woman like a lady regardless of her "true" standing. He used to tell me that a woman is someone's daughter and no matter what he would want his daughter treated with respect no matter what! He was very "old school".

Now I realize that I am stronger and can handle stress better than he could. He was so sensitive and loving. I only became gentler and kinder because I knew him. I am so glad he does not have to suffer through losing me. I would rather be the one suffering than for him to have any pain at all. He had a rough childhood (his mother died of cancer when he was 4) and always felt alone in the world. That is what made him have such tenderness toward other people and a great love for animals. Lou lived as Christ-like as a person could. I had more knowledge of the various doctrines and had studied the bible much more than him but he had the spiritual wisdom that most people I know (whether Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or Christian) could ever hope to have.

I had a friend of Lou's tell me that God takes the "good ones first" and leaves the rest of us who still have too much growing to do behind to "suffer and learn". Not sure I totally agree with that but it gives me something to think about.

Whatever our religious beliefs in this forum are; for those of us who believe in a power greater than ourselves, we must believe that in His wisdom he makes all things (whether random acts or part of the plan) work toward his will. I have too much growing to do on an emotional and spiritual level to really understand this but only pray for the ability to accept that which I cannot change.

Thanks for posting your message. I had one of my unexpected crying jags in the shower tonight and it is always so comforting to hear others have the same doubts, confusions, and questions that I do. Everyone in this group is so insightful, thoughtful, reflective, and above all rational. I have to tell you it sometimes amazes me; especially when you realize all we have been through and what we continue to go through each day that we try and make sense of our loss and anticipate a future without him/her.

Hope everyone has a good week.

[WendyJ]

What an interesting question...I like others do not think my husband would have done well had the roles been reversed. My husband had me up on this pedestal which had always bothered me to a certain extent, he relied on me too much, a role which I always wanted to be the other way around. I made the major decisions, paid the bills etc. but he was my world...my safety net my best friend. Steve would give you the shirt off his back...give you his last dollar...be there in an instant if you needed him. My husband suffered with a poor leg circulation problem which unknown to us later caused his death and he did alot of suffering, was constantly in alot of pain and had many surgeries because of it, not to mention loss of job and hobbies and dignity. The only things I am grateful for now is his suffering is over and he is whole again and no longer in pain. I don't think I ever asked that the roles be reversed as in my heart I knew he was now pain free and I wouldn't want him to go through the horrible pain that I went through but I had begged God to take me too so we could be together. God did not listen to me, and left me here to go on without him but He knew there was a reason for his decision, and I now realize he knew best and thank him every day for bringing Derek into my life.

Love Always,

Wendy

[kayc]

I do not think George would have done well at all without me. It is weird though, I'd always thought of myself as strong and capable, ready to face any challenge, and I assumed I'd do okay if this ever happened...but I wasn't prepared for it to happen NOW (I thought we'd have another 20 years or so) and little did I realize how it would impact me on every level. I feel I've been reduced to rubble and I don't feel strong at all. Sometimes I do okay, but other times I feel overwhelmed and without purpose. I was always a strong Christian, but this really caught me off guard. The truth is, no matter how we think we are or think we'd handle something, we can't really know until we're there just how encompassing the challenge is or how we'd fare. The fact that we haven't commit suicide or been locked up is to our credit, I think we all owe ourselves a pat on the back!

[JeanneC]

Friends of Alex's have told me that he would not do well at all. In fact, he himself told me that if I died before him he could not live in the house, he would have to sell it, he would not be able to sleep there at all. Even though he has a lot of friends, most of them live out of state or just far from our home. And his sisters all live in New Mexico and Texas. And, besides that he worked from home, so it wasn't as if he got to see a lot of people during the day like I do.

[kayc]

Wendy,

Your husband sounds a lot like mine. I felt the same way, I would not have wanted to reverse roles, I would never have wanted him to go through what I have the past three years. I am very thankful he is out of his suffering and spared any more pain. What surprised me is that it was so much harder on me than I ever could have imagined!

[shhh65]

"It is weird though, I'd always thought of myself as strong and capable, ready to face any challenge, and I assumed I'd do okay if this ever happened...but I wasn't prepared for it to happen NOW (I thought we'd have another 20 years or so) and little did I realize how it would impact me on every level. I feel I've been reduced to rubble and I don't feel strong at all. Sometimes I do okay, but other times I feel overwhelmed and without purpose. I was always a strong Christian, but this really caught me off guard. The truth is, no matter how we think we are or think we'd handle something, we can't really know until we're there just how encompassing the challenge is or how we'd fare. The fact that we haven't commit suicide or been locked up is to our credit, I think we all owe ourselves a pat on the back!

Kay,

My feelings exactly.

Sherry

[WendyJ]

Kay,

It is strange as when Steve was alive I always told him I wanted to go first when the time came as I knew I couldn't handle being left alone, everyone here knows I really did have a rough time and there are still times that are hard. I am no longer afraid to be alone but do not want to be alone, and can not wait for the day I no longer have to.

Love Always,

Wendy

[KathyG]

Very interesting thread. Thanks, Marsha, for starting it.

I think it can't be coincidence that all of us are coping with our spouses' loss than they would have done if we had died. Maybe it really is true that God is merciful and makes sure that the strongest half of a couple survives.

Because of Bill's dementia, if I had died he would have been helpless and incapable of living day to day without someone to take care of him. But even if he had had a healthy mind, he still would have had it rougher than I have. He was a gentle, sweet, sensitive man who was happy and optimistic 98% of the time, but I doubt he would have been able to withstand the pressure of having to assume all the decisions and responsibilities. The grief attacks alone would have destroyed him.

When I think of how tough this situation would have been on Bill, and how much more helplessness and frustration he would have felt as he continued to see his mental faculties slip away, then I realize it's a blessing he went first. I know he's waiting for me and I look forward to the day I can go to him. But I've accepted that there's more for me to do on earth before that happens. And it feels good to realize how much inner strength I didn't know I had -- though I wish I hadn't had to find out. I wish none of us had to find out! But here we are, still standing.

[MikeC]

I think about this often, Marsha. I am pretty sure Janet would have gotten along better than I have for a couple of reasons. First, she showed so much strength as she faced death. I always felt she had much more inner strength than me. Second, she had a wide network of friends who loved and supported her. Janet was my source of comfort and support during emotional crises, including the deaths of my parents and 2 of my brothers. When I lost her I also lost the one person I could turn to for help. So, yeah, I definitely think she would have fared better than me.

Mike

[kayc]

Mike,

You can't be sure of that...until the time comes, we don't know. I always thought I would have done better than George too, I was always strong, tremendous faith, etc., but when it came down to it, I haven't done so well. I'd hate to think of George going through this so I am very grateful he was spared, even if it means my suffering instead, but I've made wrong decisions, haven't done well at all. In the beginning months, I worked so hard at my grief, getting the emotions out, etc., trying so hard, but what I remember is a blur of time, I remember feeling suicidal and overwhelmed and like I was without hope and didn't want to go on. The loneliness assaulted me and the pain was unbearable. I've done better with time, but I can't say I've done too well at this. And it's taken a lot of time. I still miss him and always wll. I just wish I could have had a roadmap to follow in this journey.

[Rosemary T]

Mike,

I agree with KayC about that! It is sometimes easier to deal with our own impending death than the death of our most precious one! I think it would have been much easier for me to think about dying and not being here (my only concern would have been my poor Lou) then what I am going through now which is being without him.

I know for a fact how much Lou loved me and how sensitive he was and how guilty he felt about everyone's unhappiness or pain. He really did take ownership for everyone's life that he came into contact with. He would have been a total wreck living without me. Not just because he relied on me so much but mostly because he would have constantly been thinking about what he could have done to "save me".

You seem like you were a terrific husband and BEST friend to your wife. Can you imagine the pain she would be in to have to go on without you? Of course we will never know but just as I am sure you are grateful that her physical suffing is over, you would do ANYTHING to prevent her from any other suffering as well, so maybe it is better that you were the one to handle that pain. Being without you would have made fighting that cancer look like a picnic!

I like to believe that when good people like your wife and my husband pass on they become new beings with knowledge of their earthly life but because they are one with God they now can feel only joy and peace and total reassurance that eternity holds only goodness. We mortal beings are the ones left with these mortal feelings of pain, suffering, loss, uncertainty, etc.

Rosemary

[marsha]

Rosemary - your last paragraph really resonated with me. After my really bad day yesterday, I dreamt of Joe for the first time. He was surrounded by people, some I knew, some I didn't. I felt a feeling of protectiveness from all those around him, towards him. He hugged me, but no words were spoken. I felt shy, like I was an outsider. My feeling in the dream was that he was going on all through these months. This is the first time I feel that he's ok, and the first time I could look at his picture posted on my computer without feeling that dagger through my heart. I don't know if it will last, but I'm ok TODAY. Thank you all, for your insightful posts! Marsha

P.S. - Mike, Joe was my best friend, too.

[JandE905]

I have had this ame thought many times. My husband, Eric was the complete opposite of me. He was very outgoing and full of life. He never worried about anything. He laughed and joked about anything and everything. I am the worry wort. I find the smallest thing and worry about it like crazy. He was always tell me that nothing is worth worrying that much about. Everything always works out. Eric was a dialysis tech. He was so well liked. All his patients adored him. He never treated them any different from any other person, no matter how sick they were. I don't understand why I am here and he isn't. I don't have any ambitions. I have a horrible personality. I am shy and quiet. I always look at the bad, never the good. Why leave me here! I should've died instead of him. I do believe that Eric would be heart broken without me. But, he would be the type of person to be happy and live life to fullest in my memory. I can't do that. I have died with him. I have no desire to live. I feel like a bad mother for saying that. I have 2 children. I just can't bear life without him. I will never understand why I am here and Eric isn't.

Jenn

[Rosemary T]

Jenn,

Right now you are filled with so much pain....I hear myself in your words. Lou was just like your husband. Full of life, kind to everyone, wise beyond what his education or life experiences should ever have allowed, but here I am (no where near as worthy as he was to have more time on earth and certainly not as appreciative for the little things like he was)to keep going while he who would have still given so much to so many is gone.

Life and Death are very mysterious. I had someone tell me (after listening to me say EXACTLY what you are saying) that maybe God took Lou to spare him anymore suffering because he was such a kind and good person. Maybe he left me here because I need to suffer a bit more before I grow into the person that God wants me to be. Perhaps he still has some work to do on me before I am "worthy" to check out and be totally at peace and pain free.

It is so difficult for us with our small and infinite minds to comprehend the reason that anything happens especially if we believe that an omnipotent and all knowing, awesome, God is in charge.

Please believe me when I tell you I am constantly questioning God and even on occasion his very existence. I do not have a lot of faith and spirituality like some of the people who check in here. I do however believe that there is a power greater than myself who has control over things (at least I am believing this at this particular moment)and all of this will make perfect sense in the end. But what to do in the meantime while I scream, cry, and have NO DESIRE to go on? We do anyway....and we stop every once in a while to listen to the "still small voice" to get some comfort and strength, hoping that the pain will diminish and that we will have more answers than questions soon. We wait and we go on because.....well really, what choice do we have?

Keep posting, praying, meditating, and above all....hold your children close. See him in their eyes. Watch them sleep and know that he lives on in them...take care of yourself, be gentle with yourself....give yourself time to heal. Keep coming back. Thank you for sharing your grief.....it makes me feel a little less alone when I hear my thoughts and pain articulated through your words.

God Bless,

Rosemary

[mlg]

Jenn and Rosemary

I don't think God left you here to suffer. I know we all feel tortured and I do think there is something He has in mind even though we don't know what it is. Maybe it is just to find out we have a strength that we didn't know we had. Right now we are all struggling with this great loss we have.

Jenn maybe your purpose is to find something to bring you out of your "shell". You have made it this far, keep going. Don't try to take too big of a step. Are your kids in school yet? If so maybe you could volunteer to do something at their school unless you are having to work. Sometimes there are things you can help with at night. Let them be your strength right now. They are so resiliant. Take baby steps with them.

You have to be a wonderful person or Eric wouldn't have chosen you. There has to be something there to offer people, just keep looking inside yourself and let it flow freely.

Keep coming here and let us help you.

[kayc]

Jenn,

I understand all of your feelings, but it pains me to hear you put yourself down. Being shy and quiet does not mean someone has a bad personality! My son is shy and quiet and I esteem him more than anyone I know! And I too am a worrier, I could get a job at it I am so good at it! That's just something for me to work at...some people have melancholy personalities, but they also are usually better at some things than others, give more attention to detail, organized, perfectionist, they are the artists and musicians of the world! We all are gifted at something, we have our strong points and our things we need to work on. Look for what is good in yourself and applaud it!

I hear what you are saying about your husband, I felt that way about George too. He was the "good one", the one that had a heart the size of the world! He was everyone's friend, he was always there for everyone, he would give the shirt off of his back while I was the one calling him down to earth on everything...I used to say he was the heart and I was the brains, I was the practical one, I used to think of myself as the spoil sport, but one of us needed to be and we balanced each other together. It's not that one of us was better and one of us was worse, we were a team, we complemented one another and together we were great...that is what great relationships are made of!

It would hurt Eric to see you thinking of yourself this way and to see you in so much pain. I don't know any way around it, but I do know you will come through it in due time. I wish I knew a way we could skip all of this part, grieving can be so painful, but I have also seen myself stretch and grow in ways I never thought possible. I don't try to figure God out, He knows what He is up to, I don't, if I need to know something, He'll cue me in. But I do know He wants to be with me in all of this.

Try to enjoy your children, they need you, and they are what you have left and are part of you and your husband. I know you hurt, I wish I could make it better.

KayC

Edited November 10, 2008 by kayc

[Dusky]

Marsha,

Thanks for posing that question “What if the roles were reversed?” here is my thoughts on my own circumstances.

Jack has been dead now nearly 3 and a half years. I pondered the question you posed, “What if the roles were reversed,” in the early days following his death. Moreover, that thought occasionally passes through my mind even now. I have always thought that Jack would have been more emotionally sound to make this transition and his family would have been near to support him emotionally. He had an uncanny ability to live “in the moment” and that quality, which is difficult to maintain, was the cornerstone of his existence. He would have missed me terribly; however, I also believe that due to his gregarious and magnetic personality he would have overcome the loneliness through his work and granddaughters.

More than anything I wish, I could have (and would if I could now) reverse these roles so that Jack could enjoy his granddaughters. Jacks son, Tom, and Jacks granddaughters, moved away from Arizona after Jacks death – a move that would never have occurred had Jack lived. Jacks death literally transformed the landscape of our unconventional family and the one and only thing that would have ever allowed it to remain in tact is - if Jack had been allowed to live and “the roles and been reversed.”

I felt guilty on some occasions for being the one who lived. I even told Jack’s son at one point in time that if I could have I would have taken his fathers place – and died for him – so that he could have his father. His lack of response to my question, at that time, was deafening. Tom wanted his father back and I could not “reverse those roles,” even though I would have gladly done so. Lives were altered forever – the pseudo son I thought I had, and had helped raise along with Jacks’ granddaughters vanished with moving vans shortly after Jack died. My family was torn apart. To this day, there is emptiness and a yearning for a reversal of roles that would make me vanish and for Jack to reappear again. I would have no hesitation and no regrets in making such a selection. I would give anything, and all that I have, to give Tom his father back and the grandchildren their Papa Jack. Despite my efforts I have been unable be a pseudo father or grandfather for Tom or his girls. The one redeeming feature has been that my efforts in this regard have been 100%.

I have no regrets. I am at peace with myself and I know I have done the best I could with the circumstances given to me during the years following Jack’s death. Still, I would “reverse the roles” if I could. However, that has never been an option, and never will be. Instead, I wrote the book I have mention occasionally on this site, “Finding My Banana Bread Man,” and created a web site http://findingmybananabreadman.com/ where you can find the complete story of Jack and me.

So – “What if the roles were reversed?” Jack would be here with his son and granddaughter in Arizona. None of them would have moved to Michigan. Jack would have continued to work in Fountain Hills as hairstylist and would be as popular as he had always been. He would have buried himself in his work and surrounded himself with his son and granddaughters for every moment that he was not doing a customer’s hair. He would miss me terribly, however, his ability to “live in the moment” would have seen him through, and his family that was torn apart by his death, would now be the glue that kept him whole. Jack would not have written a book about me if I had died – writing was not his strength – so “Finding My Banana Bread Man” would not exist - or one of a similar title about me. Jack would not have been driven, as I have been, to ensure that granddaughters had a tangible “book” to someday serve as a reminder of their Papa Jack, because he would be with his granddaughters every day. Jack would have had an easier time in dealing with my death because his family would have remained with him for all the years that followed my death.

The road would have been different for Jack than it has been for me – and that is why I would “reverse the roles” if I could. However, none of us can reverse anything. It has been an interesting exercise to contemplate the “what if.”

Thank you once again Marsha for posing the question “What if the roles were reversed?”

John – Dusky is my handle on here

Love you Jack

[marsha]

John - my Joe had the same attitude as your Jack. He, too, lived for the moment. Sometimes, I would wake up and it would be late, and I knew he had to get up early the next morning. "Why are you still up?" I would ask - and he would say "I don't want to miss anything!" Oh, that I would have that feeling about life. I was the worrier, and he would balance me.

Please don't be hard on yourself. You've written a wonderful book that helps others (I've read quite a few excerpts and can attest to that). You are much further in this journey than I am, but I've found that human nature is something we can't explain. I've had people who are almost strangers to me offer me more comfort than friends of 25 years. And my take on it? There are those who just can't deal with death. So be it.

I have found myself in your position of wanting to reverse roles - but - I know I must realize it was Joe's time, not mine. As many questions, guilt, grief - all that come up every day, every minute - there's nothing - NOTHING - you or I can do to change the outcome. The finality is awful and heartbreaking, literally. But you are a valued human being in your own right! I wish I could say more words of comfort, peace, John, Marsha

[MartyT]

John, dear ~

While I understand your heartfelt wish that if only you could have traded places with your beloved Jack, his life here with his family would be wonderful, I want to gently suggest to you that this is only an assumption on your part. Even if Jack were still alive today, there is no guarantee that everything would turn out as perfectly as you describe.

Your post reminded me of the following passage from a wonderful book I've just finished reading entitled Soul Shift: Finding Where the Dead Go, by Mark Ireland. (Mark's dramatic story of a father’s unbearable loss and his journey to find where the dead go offers hope to the bereaved, and provides compelling evidence that death is not the end of our existence.) It seems to me that what Mark Ireland has decided to do with his grief is not unlike what you have chosen to do with yours. On page 160, he writes:

It suddenly became clear to me that Brandon’s passing was necessary in order for me to help many other people. This might sound callous or facile, but it wasn’t – not the way it happened inside me. After all, I was not being asked to sacrifice Brandon to God like Isaac. He was gone for reasons beyond my control or plan, and nothing could bring him back. So what I was left with was a choice about how to view it and what I would let the death do to me, how I let it grow inside me. I could feed it my grief and pain, or I could feed it my wonder and faith. Whatever choice I made would determine who I became. So when I took the spiritual path, the death changed from an accident and tragedy into a karmic and esoteric event. Then I had no choice but to accept it as a positive thing and grow. I probably still would have thrown it all away just to have my son back, but the universe didn’t provide that option. Once I changed my outlook, I realized that my loss of Brandon was not a meaningless accident. I had woken up to a greater potential and gained a reference point from which I could contribute to the universe in many new ways. I could develop powers of insight, skills to serve as a bridge between realms, and I could relate to others struggling with loss in a way that allowed me to help them and show them the path I had found. Not didactically, thank goodness, but out of the crucible of my own suffering. People in pain would know I shared their anguish at some level, so I was able to transfer my empathy and, in a sense, help bear their burden through my own grief. Like the shaman who turns his wound into a healing skill, I had become a grief counselor out of my own heartache. I had earned my way.

[Dusky]

Marty,

Thanks for the reading reference from mark Ireland - sounds like a book I should put on my reading list. Thank you for your words of wisdom - you always know just what to say. Thank God for you - and the wonderful site you have created.

John - Dusky is my handle on here

Love you Jack

[AnnC]

Marty, that is beautiful. Thank you for posting it.

If the roles were reversed: well, when we got married, my ex-husband always insisted he hoped he would go first, because he could not live without me. Even when we got divorced, he wanted to keep in touch, and over the years, we mostly did. I think he would have had a tough time if I had died first. He checked in on me on a regular basis as he lost other members of his family. He lost his mother when he was only 21, while we were still in college and dating. His uncle committed suicide. His father died in 1993. The worst was that his beloved partner, Jerry, died of AIDS. My ex was completely devastated. It took him a long time and much grief counseling to move on in his life. I remember him talking to me about Jerry's death when he got sick himself, 12 years later, and choking up. He told me if he ever lost me too, even when we were not in touch very often, it would have been too much.

It has been awful for me, but some good things came of it. I became friends with his boyfriend and other friends of his, and after 4 1/2 years, they are still close friends of mine.

I firmly believe that I am still here because it's meant for me to still be here. I believe he is in a good place and reunited with his parents and his beloved Jerry. I know I'll see all of them when it's my time. But meanwhile, it's still very hard, and a lot of tears are shed, even after almost 5 years.

Ann