If You're Going Through Hell

[Clematis]

13 hours ago, kayc said:

Since everybody seems to be over here, I wanted to call attention to an article Anne (Enna) posted that I thought you all might like & relate to in Tools for Healing (Articles Worth Reading):
https://www.buzzfeed.com/laraparker/what-people-say-when-youre-grieving-vs-what-you-hear?utm_term=.boV8Or7J7#.vxGm9rW2W

I loved this article, and it's so true! Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they say these things, and sometimes I think they are mostly trying to make themselves feel better by tossing out a cliche that hopefully will stymie the griever into silence. Sorry to be cynical, and I am sorry that a lot of these people are our friends and others whose support we value and need and so we can't just call a spade a spade. The other day, a neighbor had told me way too many times that my dad was in a "better place" and the last four times she said this were in one single conversation. I finally asked her if she had his address at his new place. Fortunately she laughed.

What I hope for is something honest and real, but I fear that is more than many people are able to do. It is what I have always tried to do for others, even when I was young, to say something like, "Wow, that is terrible! How are you doing?" It opens the door for the griever to say whatever they want, even if it is to say they don't want to talk about it, and that is ok. Personally I feel like the biggest problem with all of the cliches tossed out to grievers is that the cliches shut the door and prevent further communication.

One of my first fears after my father died was that I would be inundated with people saying, "I'm sorry for your loss". Now there's a "door-closer" of a cliche. I think you're not supposed to respond to this other than to say thank you. But when people said that to me, I said "Me too" and then followed that with whatever I felt like. Sometimes people tried again to close the door, but a lot of times they responded with something genuine from their hearts that was not a cliche and more like what I really needed.

[KATPILOT]

5 hours ago, Clematis said:

One of my first fears after my father died was that I would be inundated with people saying, "I'm sorry for your loss". Now there's a "door-closer" of a cliche. I think you're not supposed to respond to this other than to say thank you. But when people said that to me, I said "Me too" and then followed that with whatever I felt like.

I don't know why I connect to that phrase but for some reason, it makes me feel better when I hear someone say that to me. Early along my grief's journey I watched a movie "Unstoppable"  and in it Chris Pine after Denzel Washington mentioned his wife died of cancer five years ago said "I'm sorry". Denzel Washington replied "Me too, me too". It just got to me perhaps because my wife had died of cancer, I don't know but it just got to me and I began responding the same way when someone said that to me. From that moment forward, I heard them actually giving a damn about my loss, not dismissing it. Like you Laura, I would then talk on about my loss and weather or not they truly cared, they still listened. I like to think they did care. Today when I talk with a person who has lost someone, I do say that I'm sorry..........and then I keep the conversation going about their loss to make them understand it's not just lip service. I really am sorry for them and my perspective is now different.

By the way, most people who have experienced a loss would agree about the "door-closer" of a cliché thing. It's possible I have it all wrong for grief can do funny things to you. My understanding of a lot of things has indeed changed.

[TerriL]

Someone telling me they're sorry for my loss doesn't bother me, except when it's spoken in a robotic tone by some customer service rep I'm dealing with on the phone. I have also responded with, "Me, too. More than words can convey." Many just nod and some have placed an arm around my shoulder. In the first several months after Paul died, when I was filled with more rage, I didn't want to hear ANY of it. I'm the one who had lost her husband and my family---who were actually one of the biggest offenders, mores than friends or strangers---would keep telling me how everyone "meant well" and I was being a bit "harsh" toward people. It astonished me, how, even while I'm in a real life nightmare, once again I'm being asked to consider everyone ELSE. All I kept thinking was, "So, let me get this straight. I'm now supposed to be focusing on making sure everyone else feels good about themselves?" That would make me more enraged. I saw a very unhealthy pattern from my family repeating itself at the worst possible time in my life and I chose to kick it to the curb. The neighbors next door are religious fanatics. The wife has constantly tried to tell me that Paul is in a better place and the husband, who isn't right mentally, kept telling me that I was "doing it all wrong and needed to be HAPPY for Paul, because he graduated and is building a home for us up with the Lord". All that went through my mind was "Poor Paul doesn't even get a break from work when he's up there?" The husband also actually said that he was jealous of Paul and couldn't wait to graduate, too, because Earth is Hell and suffering. Wow, I never realized just how unhappily married they are next door. lol Knowing they aren't exactly "all there", I simply considered the source and remained silent. 

I do understand that it isn't realistic for me to think everyone is going to feel my grief the way I feel it. After all, the loss IS biggest for me. I did expect better from my family, as I said, but even that doesn't truly surprise me. Leopards and spots and all that jazz. I even have a friend right now who recently lost a grandchild (stillborn, which is beyond tragic)  and I have tried to console her, but cannot be there for her as I would like to be, because I'm still wrestling with my own grief. I do understand the need people have to distance themselves somewhat from my pain, since constant exposure can drag an extremely empathic person down into depression. It's how some people can distance themselves emotionally to become doctors or nurses and others, like myself, know they could never do it and would live every day in a deep funk. Similar to that. I did not tell my friend about a "better place", although she is very religious and has said it herself. I told her how genuinely shocked and sorry I am about what happened and that I would not insult her by saying I know how she feels, because I have NO clue. She has already experienced the loss of one of her sons and now this. I did offer her an ear to listen or a shoulder to cry on if she needs one (she lives in the North part of my state so we aren't close in proximity). I also sent her a card saying the same as a reminder that I have not forgotten about her. I attempted to text her, but received no response, so I'm taking that to mean she is in the pace I was in a while back. I wasn't ready to talk about it. I just wanted to "be" for a while.

[Margm]

My mother has not passed yet, it is any moment.  My sister wants me to call the funeral home.  I remember in shock talking to the funeral home for Billy and asking them if I could wait until the first of the month to pay them.  They said "no, did he have insurance."  He did, but as I was not expecting him to die (which was unrealistic), but was what I did not expect, I was going for a miracle, but real-life hits you in the face.  My sister says my mother used her burial insurance to go to Branson.  That would never have happened, even if she had been in the throes of Alzheimer's.  She wasn't.  I know where every bit of her money went.  My cousin (unknown to me) sent my sister money for the burial a couple of years ago.  I told my sister that hospice had to notify the funeral home and then I would call them.  I understand she wants to get things over with, but she still has to be pronounced, I think..  I may be wrong.  Lots of stuff I don't understand.  

[TerriL]

Marg, I can't imagine that it would be any different from pre-planning. Maybe you could call the funeral home and ask to speak to the Funeral Director. Explain the situation as it stands now and see if he can advise you on what steps to take. Did your mother write down or tell anyone her wishes as to what she wants as far as burial/cremation or any services? It was relatively simple for me when Paul passed because he only wanted basic cremation in a plain box and no viewing or funeral service. My parents were the same and I will be that way, too, when my time comes down the road (although, I am not averse to an Irish wake---lol). 

There are many things I will never understand, SW. Maybe that's just the way the Universe operates? Even my magic lasso doesn't have the answer to that.

[kayc]

9 hours ago, Clematis said:

people saying, "I'm sorry for your loss". Now there's a "door-closer" of a cliche. I think you're not supposed to respond to this other than to say thank you.

We had a discussion about this and everyone else seemed to feel opposite of you, that that is the appropriate statement, so I'm sorry it strikes you wrong because I'm sure you've gotten it a lot.  In actuality, there really isn't much people can say that we can't find annoying.  Even your statement, 

 

9 hours ago, Clematis said:

"Wow, that is terrible! How are you doing?"

someone can feel like, "How the hell do you THINK I'm doing!  I just lost my spouse/husband/brother, etc.!"  So really, there isn't any one thing we can say that will do it for everyone and since we can't read their minds, we really have no way of knowing how it will hit them.  It's just tough no matter how you look at it.

[MartyT]

That's so true, Kay. I often find myself saying "I'm so sorry for your loss" because I truly do feel it and I mean it when I say it ~  but I think that phrase has become a cliche partly because we hear it on television so much these days, usually as a line delivered in flat, cold, business-like and robotic fashion by an actor portraying a police detective in a death-notification or murder investigation scene. Compassion can be conveyed non-verbally in our posture, touch, tone of voice, eye contact, etc. But on a site like this, we are limited to using the written word only. We can only hope that readers gauge our level of sincerity as they come to know us through our posts.  ♥

[TerriL]

1 hour ago, MartyT said:

 but I think that phrase has become a cliche partly because we hear it on television so much these days, usually as a line delivered in flat, cold, business-like and robotic fashion by an actor portraying a police detective in a death-notification or murder investigation scene. 

The tone and expression does make all the difference. How well you know the person saying it also is a big factor. When I tried to deactivate Paul's cell phone, I started with call number one early in January. The woman told me she was "sorry for my loss" and I was crying and said thank you for her understanding. Fast forward four months and just as many phone calls later (I had to repeatedly call and I was still getting billed for two phones) and whenever the conversation would start with (as usual) "I'm sorry for your loss", I was now saying "Yeah, yeah, whatever. Who can I speak to who will be sorry enough to actually do their job?" Police, firefighters and others who see death on a regular basis are trained to not become overly emotional. They're trained to keep a level head as much as possible in the midst of chaos. There are extreme circumstances, obviously 9/11 comes to mind, when you will see policemen and firefighters openly weeping and they also get very emotional when it comes to children. My husband was a firefighter for over 26 years, so I know that he would carry a lot inside of him that he didn't always want to talk about. 

[Clematis]

I think that's all true...the tone and what comes with it has a lot to do with how it comes across. I had feared being inundated by this cliche, but a lot of people in fact did say that to me and most of the time it was heartfelt and only the start of a genuinely supportive conversation. My actual experience with these conversations was much better than I had feared, and most of the people who said "I'm sorry for your loss" in a cold clipped tone were not people I knew well. They probably could have said anything in a cold clipped delivery and it would have come across the same. Expressions of true compassion come across as such, regardless of the words.

And my dad's former neighbor Mimi, the problem is probably really not that she keeps telling me he's in a better place, he's out of pain now, at least we had all that time together, and all that other stuff. The real problem is deeper than her actual words, and that she will argue the merit of her opinions until I finally walk away from her. She is a nosy neighbor who thinks that she is and was an expert about my dad. She said a lot of things that really irritated me while he was alive. She barely knew him, but was eager to jump in and straighten me out on all kinds of things, based on her experience with her own dad. One day she told me that my dad was going to die very soon based on her experience with her own dad. I told her what his doctors were saying and she pursed her lips and rolled her eyes and continued about my dad and her dad. I finally said, "my dad and your dad are not the same person-if they were we would be sisters!" I walked away from her and ended up slamming my finger in the door. I had a little purple bruise on my fingernail for months.

She told me the other day that he probably really missed my sisters. The ones who only called him when they needed money and told him they did not want him to move to their town, an hour away from where my parents had lived. He ended up living very close to the daughter who really cared about him and was interested in him. He told me once "I don't really know either of them (my sisters) at all", and I think that was probably true. He was a silent detached man while my mother was alive, but when she died he opened up and began to talk. I saw something in him I had never seen before and I was very eager to get to know him. It was really the best ten years of my life and I miss him horribly. I really don't need his nosy neighbor or anyone else to redefine him or our relationship for me. I wish Mimi did not get under my skin and bother me so much, but she does. I don't think I am handling this very well.

[Margm]

2 hours ago, MartyT said:

But on a site like this, we are limited to using the written word only. We can only hope that readers gauge our level of sincerity as they come to know us through our posts

Mama is drawing her last breaths.  People say things to me.  I shake my head up and down.  If you cannot see me, I am shaking my head up and down.  I know the rules of etiquette.  Not everyone does..  Mama lived 95 years.  She was a strange woman.  (Hey, the apple did not fall far from the tree.)  When it all comes down to it, do we really care what people say?  Some know how we feel.  They offer empathy.  Others offer sympathy.  One of these days, if they are "thinking people" they will cross over this threshold and possibly think "I wonder about what I said to them when their loved one passed away."  

My relatives send me little quotes to help me along.  I read them.  They don't help me along.  Hey, they tried.  

My daughter loves having the attention when someone is sick, when she is sick, when someone dies.  She eats up all the flowery words.  I don't know if I admire that quality or despise it.  It is kind of like my mother-in-law was so poor that churches brought them Christmas baskets.  Billy hated it.  My mother-in-law ate it up (the attention).  

I'm sorry, I am a mean person lately.  I have no care what people say to me.  I should carry a card around my neck saying "do not engage the monster".  

My son went over there.  In the old days my dad would have visited the home of the sick and dying.  My son and my sister argue politically.  My sister is an antagonist and my son, just like his dad, joins in.  Actually, Billy in his later years just ignored my sister's opinions, as I have learned to do.  She was surprised that I have all of her political crap hidden and do not get it on my FB page.  I can go to her page and read what I want to read but she has no original thoughts, just news articles about politics.  

Yes, I am in an agitated mood today.  I hope Billy and my Daddy and all Mama's sisters are there to meet her.  Now, that is my idealistic faith part of my religion.  I hope there is no disappointments in heaven because I know how one of her sisters believed/or rather did not believe and maybe two..  But, if it is like it is written her mom and dad will be there, my dad, Billy, and that terrible mother-in-law of hers (who was actually an angel even when she was on earth, my mammaw).  

[Gin]

Marg,

You are not a mean person...just over loaded and still grieving your Billy.  I hope your Mama goes peacefully.  I also wish you peace.  We are thinking of you.

Gin

[Margm]

Thanks.......I feel mean.  I have felt mean for 10 months.

[Clematis]

8 minutes ago, Marg M said:

I'm sorry, I am a mean person lately.  I have no care what people say to me.  I should carry a card around my neck saying "do not engage the monster".  

Marg, I really doubt that you are a mean person...although, like me, you may have a short fuse and become irritable easily. You have been through so much lately, it is staggering to even think about. Watching someone slowly disappear has got to be agonizing.

My mother died over a five-month span and it was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. I was across the country and could do nothing. I was in my last semester of grad school and kept offering to come to PA. I was the only person who really thought she might die, but there was nothing I could do. My family kept telling me "no, no, no - wait until you finish school".  All I could do was talk to my sisters frequently and have long conversations with my father trying to help support him, as he obviously became rather drunk on the other end of the phone. It probably would have been worse to have been close by, and it still seems strange that I never saw her at the end.

I feel for you Marg, I'm sure you really are going through hell. I think probably the best you can do is just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Nodding your head up and down sounds like a good strategy...

[MartyT]

Marg, my dear, I am thinking of you, holding you close and sending you peace.

I thought of you and your Mama when I read this just now: At the end of life, searching for the right word   ♥

[Gin]

Marg,

ten months ago is when we lost Al and Billy.  We are still messed up from that!  We are all thinking about you.  

Gin

[TerriL]

Marty, that article made me cry. It reminded me of the deaths of my grandmother, mom and dad. After my own personal experience with hospice in their cases, I was relieved in one way that Paul and I were spared that. 

Marg, to paraphrase Jessica Rabbit: "You aren't mean, you're just drawn that way." With everything you've been going through, I just think you have pretty much reached a limit and now, you nod your head up and down in response to everything. What more can they do to you that hasn't already been done? Hang in there, SW. WW is counting on you when things get crazy.  

[TerriL]

Gin,

Ten months ago is when I lost Paul, too. I shake my head thinking how fast that time went.

[Margm]

Thanks Marty.  My sister says she is just being her stubborn self, but if she had had her way, she would have gone months ago.  She did not want to stay.  Marty, we sat and watched Billy's dad, my dad, and now my mom go through this race, crawl with time.  Relax sounds so much better.  My kids are over there with her.  I will gut up and go too.  Not because of guilt though.  I don't consider it an honor to be with them at their last breath.  I am a mama.  I do not want my kids going through this.  Somehow walking way out into that Ouachita National Forest on one of the back mountain roads, sitting up against a tree, way, way away from my truck and only being found months later with notes in my pockets and socks telling who I am.  Somehow, if they do not have to see me, like I saw Billy, that is a much kinder thing for loved ones.  I know there are those with different opinions, and my religion would not let me do it.  Billy once asked me about my faith and belief.  He asked didn't I question some things.  I said "no, if that is the way I have been taught, then that is the way I want to believe, I don't want to muddy the water."  Simplicity.  No deep thinking.  No one could ever accuse me of being a deep thinker. 

[TerriL]

Laura,

I wanted to say that I think the way people are under normal circumstances will be who they are in extraordinary circumstances. Every so often, someone will surprise you, but mostly, they are who they are. I should have known how my sister and her husband would be since they are usually all about themselves anyway. The thought crossed my mind today that, when Paul first died, my sister, who lives only ten minutes away and works rather close to my house, never once stopped by in person to comfort me or see how I was doing. The only way I could see her is if I accepted one of her dinner invitations and went out to HER house. Yet, my beautiful, caring, compassionate goddaughter, upon receiving the news of her godfather's death, immediately made arrangements and flew here to South Florida from Washington D.C. and stayed with me for four days so she could help me in whatever way I needed. I did not ask her to do this, she did it on her own and told me about it after the details were finished. When she arrived, her future mother in law, whom I had not met yet, picked her up at the airport and brought her here. The MIL had made me a large container of vegetable soup and she had purchased fruit and Marie Callender dinners for me to place in my freezer so I'd have something hot to eat without having to cook. Now THERE---right there---is the difference in people. The difference between putting on an act and genuine caring. Paul was like a real father to our goddaughter and his passing devastated her, as well. With her, I can talk about Paul all I want and she is happy to keep his memory alive. 

That neighbor, Mimi, is WAY out of line! If someone came up to me and said, "I think your dad is going to die soon", I think I would have told her, "You know, you don't look so well either. Maybe you should get checked out!" HAHA! And Marg thinks SHE'S mean!  Honestly though, that neighbor sounds like she has issues of her own. I'd ignore her if I were you. Are you living in your dad's house? I'm just wondering, if she's your dad's former neighbor, why you still have two put up wth her at all. 

[TerriL]

9 minutes ago, Marg M said:

  Simplicity.  No deep thinking.  No one could ever accuse me of being a deep thinker. 

Being a deep thinker is my way of life and I have to admit that it's both a blessing and a curse. I've looked at the comments from people who are devout in their chosen faiths and sometimes find myself envying them. How easy and peaceful would it be to just all-out believe what you've been taught, without questioning, without worrying about it? To be so sure all the time in your mind about having all the answers. :::sigh::: That isn't me. I was a born questioner/thinker/fighter with a justice gene that never quits. My mind does not rest easily. 

I believe I was with Paul when he drew HIS last breath, but I was not with him when he stopped breathing after the life support was removed. In the ER, Paul was still responsive but then had a major seizure and at that point, he stopped being able to breathe on his own and they intubated him. That's when they rushed him into surgery in one last attempt to try and save his life, but it wasn't successful. The last time I went in to the ICU to see him, at first I tried to talk to him and tell him to come back, but then they had a doctor speak with me over the phone, telling me there was no chance of him even coming back. So, most likely, he was already "gone" at that point. There was no more brain activity and the only reason he gave the appearance of any kind of life was because the machines were doing it for him. I kissed him so many times on his forehead and cheek (I couldn't kiss his lips because of the ventilator), I stroked his hair and his arm and tried to hold his hand. It was the first time in 34 years that he didn't squeeze my hand back. I lifted the sleeve of the hospital gown so I could see his tattoo one last time---memorize it---and I whispered to him how much I loved him and would always love him. At that moment, I knew he was no longer in there and I let him go. That was the last time I went up and the next day, they officially declared him dead and removed him from life support. I know he had a thing against people staring at him while he was just lying there and I'm not sure he would have wanted me to go through that. 

[Gwenivere]

Terri, I was not there when Steve died either.  He was not incubated, but he was mentally gone days before his death.  I don't even know if he knew I and his brother were there.  When they called to tell me he had passed they asked if I wanted to come see him and I declined.  After spending almost 2 weeks watching him slip away, why would I want to see his body he had finally fled? It's a decision I have absolutely no regrets about.  There is already too much in my head that  can't be unseen now.

[TerriL]

Gwen, the nurse called me and asked if I wanted to be present when they removed the life support. I declined also. I've spent many a night as it is sitting awake, reliving the moment when Paul began convulsing from the seizure, never regaining consciousness. When Paul's body had been picked up by the funeral home and I went over with my niece the following morning to make the arrangements, the funeral director also asked if I would like to view Paul before they went ahead with the cremation. They also asked if I wanted him to be cremated in the hospital gown he still was wearing or if I wanted to bring over special clothes. Special clothes for him to be cremated in? I could hear Paul's voice inside my head, "Are you crazy? Just let them burn the stupid hospital gown! I hate it anyway." So, I said just leave him in the gown. I just wanted him left alone as much as possible. I wanted him to be at peace, with no one doing "stuff" to him any longer. He had been through enough at the hands of medical "professionals" already. I chose a really nice, masculine urn for him in gunmetal and had his name engraved on it, along with the Maltese Cross that symbolizes firefighters. If it's allowed, when I'm cremated, I'd like for them to place my ashes inside that same urn. I've instructed several people as to my wishes for us to be scattered into the Everglades (specifically the Everglades Holiday Park). The way I see it, there are already so many bodies out there, what harm will some ashes do? lol And it was one of our favorite places to go and just spend a morning or afternoon. 

[Gin]

I stayed with Al for 2 weeks in the hospital.  The last morning the docs wanted to know if I wanted to call anyone.  The end was near.  I told them No, but my daughter and SIL came up anyway.  They were there for less than 1/2 hour when he stopped breathing.  I wanted to know why the monitors did not pick it up.  Because he had a pacemaker/defibrillator his heart kept beating.  They had to call in the pacemaker company to come turn it off.  The chaplain came in and that was the end.  I asked the nurse to remove his wedding band for me.  I did not wait for the pacemaker people to come.  As far as I was concerned, he died to me the day before.  No more responses.  The artery in his neck was pounding.  All of a sudden, my SIL motioned for me to look.  No more pounding.

Gin

 

[scba]

1 hour ago, Gwenivere said:

Terri, I was not there when Steve died either.  He was not incubated, but he was mentally gone days before his death.  I don't even know if he knew I and his brother were there.  When they called to tell me he had passed they asked if I wanted to come see him and I declined.  After spending almost 2 weeks watching him slip away, why would I want to see his body he had finally fled? It's a decision I have absolutely no regrets about.  There is already too much in my head that  can't be unseen now.

I wasn't there too. I declined to watch him die and to see his body after. I don't regret that, although I feel selfish for having saved myself from witnessing it. Nurses asked us to leave the room before he expired. Don't know why, but nobody said a word. Seeing him death would have haunted me for the rest of my life. I am still haunted by the sound of the heart beat's machine. I cannot erase the image of his face before dying. I was frightened and in despair. I never said goodbye. It doesn't matter, I must live with this and that and the rest. 

[Margm]

My uncle called while I was at the credit union drawing my money out for the funeral home.  He had a friend who owns a funeral home and had already had everything taken care of.  I thanked him very much.  He is 81 and is my dad's youngest brother.  He was my kids high school principal and they stayed in trouble all the time.  He suspended my son from school a lot of times which delighted my son.  Anyhow, he owns the plot that our family is buried in and tried to get me to put Billy there.  Now, that is all I needed for Billy to haunt me, bury him with all my kinfolks.  I told my sister and she was not as happy about it as I was.  The only way I figure it is she wanted me to pay.  I signed everything over to her, I want no part of the land or anything in the house.  I could not figure why she would be angry at my uncle paying.  I think he comes from ancient stock that when the brother dies the oldest son takes care of his brother's family.  He asked did I mind, and I didn't.  

My sister thinks Mama will go tonight.  I just don't know.  My daughter stayed.  My sister chain smokes and does not care who is around, so Kelli won't be able to breathe tonight. She is allergic to the smoke.  That's all for tonight.  Hope everyone has peace this week.  Thank you all for your kind words.  My head is shaking up and down.  My chin does that when I get nervous and don't have a Xanax.  TMI.