I Need Your Help

[kayc]

To feel it is different than to plan it or act on it. You are not ostracized, you are welcome to express yourself here. Yes it's been aired here...not to the extent of planning on it. As far as being willing to admit things, I don't think you'll find a more open group, we have been very vulnerable with each other. I am not going to debate suicide, if you care to discuss it with someone else, feel free, I just don't choose to participate, I have my own opinion which is neither here nor there to you.

You should be seeking counsel from a professional...we've all encouraged you to but you ignore advice given you. Why do you feel you are turned away? We haven't done that. We have pointed you towards help that we feel you would benefit from in ADDITION to being here, not INSTEAD of being here. No one has ever said you are not welcome here, I think quite the opposite.

I think you're way out of line for judging us as condemning, rebuffing, rejecting, none of us are that. Perhaps you should quote us when you're addressing something that way so we can better know what/who you're referring to.

Chris, we are not your enemy...loss is. I understand your anger, but we are not the cause of it. We have all been there! Your insinuation that perhaps none of us had loved like you and Paula had was, while understandable, off base.

[mfh]

Chris,

I would like to say that everyone here has been very kind to you. No one has rebuffed you. Everyone here has wrestled with their desire to NOT be alive, to be with the spouse they lost, and no one here is afraid to talk about that. The difference is that when they came asking for help they took the advice given to them by members and moderator and followed up by seeking and using appropriate professional help if it was needed. To my knowledge no one in this group is making plans to kill themselves...even though they wish to be with their spouses/partners more than you know. We are all here because we choose to heal our deep wounds not run away from them. We respect each other, care deeply about each other and welcome those who also want to heal their wounds. Those who are planning or thinking seriously about suicide need to be attending therapy sessions and dealing with a suicide prevention program as suggested by our moderator, Marty, and others including me. I believe we have all reached out to you, and been very patient and kind with and to you. You have said you would get professional help on at least two posts. We believed you. But I see no effort or even a desire to follow up on that. Instead this is what I see:

You said to Kay when asked if you are planning to kill yourself: "No Kay, you aren't wrong. I prefer to not call suicide a suicide. The word is so harsh and cold. So indifferent. I think of it as an escape. A release. I think about it constantly. I don't want to be forced to live like this." "Slowly but surely I am removing the hindrances that have been holding all this at bay. The damn is starting to crack and me along with it. Right now I relish the idea of NO MORE PAIN. I don't see this move as an ending as much as a new beginning. A new beginning with My Paula."

I have been on this site for 3 years. In all that time I have seen many people come and share their pain, talk openly about how much they wish they could die (including me) and that they are choosing to heal. In the statement above, I see a plan for suicide. Many who need it get professional help in addition to being here including me...and I AM a therapist for 40 years now and I sought out individual and group counseling/therapy when Bill died because i was in trauma and pain too deep to handle alone and in appropriate to handle all of it here. If I need to do that again tomorrow, I will.

What I hear in this post tonight is not just your anger (we can deal with anger) but an edge of sarcasm that I have never met here before. It is not a welcome addition to a site overflowing with compassionate and caring people who are in pain and working hard every day to heal and help each other heal.

You also said: "My understanding of a "forum" is a place to openly, honestly, bring private and public issues before a group for "discussion'. The exchange of ideas and opinions lead to debates. And debate is what moves the discussion forward."

My response to that statement is that your understanding of forums is inaccurate or at least limited. Yes, we bring private issues here. I do not know what you mean by public issues. Our discussion is in the form of support because this IS a support group...not a discussion/debate group....though from time to time we do drift off and hold a discussion and "exchange ...ideas and opinions" but I do not see us debating nor do I see some agenda to "move the discussion forward." That is some other kind of forum. This is a "support group" and in support groups we support each other not debate each other.

We welcomed you here and we would welcome you to continue but frankly the edge of sarcasm puts me off and is inappropriate to this site as far as I am concerned. You need professional help with your grief and your desire to die. That is beyond the scope of this forum. This forum is support. It is not therapy nor is it formal counseling. It can be an adjunct to both, however. I think everyone here has suggested that you get professional help. You agreed to do it but I see nothing that leads me to believe you are going to do that. In fact a see a suicide plan.

I need to not interact with you unless you do get help from a professional counselor/therapy and deal with your grief and hopefully with your plan to kill yourself. None of us want to see anyone kill themselves and ignore the love their families have shown and have for them or rob themselves of life..which is a God given gift..even in pain. We do not want to see you kill yourself but you need to come to that decision with the help of a therapist. If you decide to choose life and healing, I will be happy to interact with you but not before. I guess you can consider that a rebuff but I consider it a wise choice hopefully one that will help lead you to get the help you need and allow the group to continue their purpose here which is to heal. I am sorry you are in such pain. All of us here know that pain. We share it all the time. We are all in that kind of pain here. We just choose to deal with it differently than you do. We choose to heal.

I wish you the best and I do hope to interact with you down the road if you get into therapy and choose to do the courageous thing and choose life.In the meantime I choose to not read or respond to your post any further. I wish you peace, Mary

[kayc]

Succinctly put, Mary, I feel the same way. We have always shown such respect to each other and I feel Chris' post/s today to be lacking in that. We care, but we cannot help someone unless they want that help.

[Wifflesnook]

Chris

I haven't really participated in this conversation, but I'd like to reiterate what everyone has said. We are all in pain, like you. We are all trying to keep upright. I think this quote acknowledges how we feel, and that we know that somehow, hard as it is, we have to go on without our beloved spouses until we join them eventually. Please get counselling help. Think of your family. Jan

With the death of our spouse (which here includes fiancée, significant other,

partner, etc.), we grieve the loss of so much more than someone we merely

loved or were close to, like a parent, grandparent, sibling, friend or pet. We

grieve instead the loss of: The one we loved most deeply, cherished and felt

the very closest to. The one we swore commitment to in that unique human

bond of marriage, which many consider sacred. The one we shared the

ultimate partnership with to live as one and perhaps bear children with. The

one who embodied our true sense of home. The one who was our best friend

and who was to be our companion for life. The one we confided in, depended

on and trusted most. The one who really knew, understood and accepted us

as we were. The one we felt safe and protected with. The one we shared

private moments and intimate feelings with. The one we mated souls with.

But it is not just that this most precious person has been torn from our life,

as unbearably heartbreaking as that alone is. With the death of our spouse,

and only of our spouse, many additional profound losses must be grieved as

well. For we also suffer: The loss of who we ourselves were while with them.

The loss of the couple we were once half of. The loss of the life partnership

we once formed. The loss of the husband or wife role we once embraced.

The loss of the life we once lived. The loss of the plans we once made. The

loss of the dreams we once shared. The loss of the future we once envisioned.

Amidst all this, we are also suddenly confronted with many hardships we

never expected to face at this point in our life. Besides financial survival,

increased domestic burdens and perhaps single parenting, additional

challenges less apparent to others but all too real and terrifying to us. We

must now find it within ourselves: To create a new identity. To redefine

our role in life. To establish a new connection to the world. To build a new

network of social relationships. To discover a new sense of purpose. To

formulate a new set of goals. To decide on a new direction for our future.

And we must accomplish these without dishonoring our former life, but while

suppressing bittersweet memories of that life, so that they not hold us back.

Memories of happier times mostly, but also those of our spouse’s death,

either sudden and shocking or after prolonged illness. We must further

endure the feelings of guilt and disloyalty that follow us as we attempt to

forget and move forward, but with our heartstrings tied so tightly to the past.

And all these tasks must be taken on at the lowest possible point of our life in

the worst state imaginable. When we are the weakest, most vulnerable, most

insecure, most isolated, most heartbroken and most emotionally exhausted

we have ever been. Without that one person we long ago became accustomed

to relying on to help get us through life's greatest challenges. The one who,

just by being there, would have provided us emotional comfort and moral

support to draw upon, as well as the strength and confidence we need to

complete those tasks and so much more. But now we face all this alone.

Profound indeed is the death of our spouse. Unique and devastating. For

nearly all of us, much more catastrophic to our life than the loss of any other.

And truly comparable, many of us widows and widowers often feel, to one

other death only. Ours.

[MartyT]

This is a terrific quotation, Jan, and I thank you for sharing it. Can you tell us the source so we can give credit to the author?

Along these lines, Litsa Williams of the wonderful What's Your Grief? blog just posted a similar article that is well worth reading: Secondary Loss--One Isn't Enough?

And Chris, you asked if you were the first person ever to mention thoughts of suicide in these forums, and I can assure you that you are not. Did you read the article I referred you to in an earlier post? If not, I invite you to read it now ~ along with the additional readings you'll find listed at the base of it: Thoughts of Suicide in Grief

[Queeniemary]

Oh, Marty, "Secondary Loss, one isn't enough?" is right on. Don't think I had thought of the secondary losses directly, but it was so true. Identity is the biggest one I think, for me. No longer wife, partner, having to plan future without Mike. Thanks for sharing that.

Mary (Queeniemary) in Arkansas

[enna]

The article "Secondary Loss, one isn't enough?" is very good, Marty. Thank you for posting it here. As we grieve we really don't feel the full impact of our secondary losses until further down the line - I don't know if we even think of them as losses! The first year is something else to get through and then the reality sets in - it is good to be aware of these things, because I think it helps us better cope. One thing I did not see mention is the loss of one's health - I do think that it plays a part in our grieving. How much easier it would be to have your soulmate with you when facing illness.

As Mary said, 'identity' is a BIG loss. Anne

[MartyT]

An excellent point and I agree with you completely, Anne ~ Loss of one's physical health is HUGE, most especially when mourning the death of a spouse. (You might wish to point this out to the author of this piece!)

[boogieman]

Amazing what time for reflection and sleep can accomplish. Apologies for "lashing out". Still in the strangle--hold grasp of runaway emotions I struggle daily. Obviously some days better than others. Obviously, too, my "raw" emotions are best kept off this forum to the extent I went to.

I certainly don't want to go there, for my sake and yours, but sometimes I can't control my emotional state. Please understand that I mean no dis-respect towards those willing to hear me. Most of you are experienced at this. Me? New territory, and it is frightening.

I never liked roller-coasters anyway.

I have read and re-read all the suggested materials. Looking back on these most recent posts scares the hell out of me. As I stated previously, I don't know how to live and be alone. I resent being forced into this like most of you. Please bear with me as I struggle to become accustomed to this new reality. My pain and agony, my struggle, apparent in my un-called-for sarcasm.

Appreciate the posted article, Jan. It helped.

And KayC, I hadn't considered our grand-son from that perspective. Also, I have no clue as how to Quote here. Sorry for that.

Regarding health, I have lost about 40 pounds in the last several months. Not an excuse, just facts.

Mary, I am contacting someone for help today.

Respectfully submitted,

Chris

[mfh]

Marty, I think I was the one to send that long quote on spousal loss to Jan. It came from here:

http://csn.cancer.org/node/261079 Scroll down to the picture of the wolf (Wolfen). It is from a cancer forum.

[MartyT]

Thank you, Mary, for that reference. (I wish I knew who "Wifeless" is. This is a powerful piece of writing.)

Chris, my dear, I think we all understand that feeling of not being in control of your emotions, and there is no need to apologize for sharing with all of us what you're going through at any given time. I promise that you will never, ever find a more caring, compassionate and understanding group of folks than the ones you've encountered here. No one is passing any judgments on you here. We care about you, and we simply want to know that you are safe.

I'd really like to hear from you what you think of some of the readings I've suggested for you. Have you read any of them? Do they offer any insights that are helpful to you?

[KarenK]

Marty,

Just wanted to let you know that I am "Wolfen" on Cancer Survivor's Network. I joined in 2009 to support my daughter and have made wonderful friends there, also. It is actually the only other forum I belong to.

While I was searching the Internet in search of grief support groups, I found this written by Wifeless. He simply stated that he wrote it. I don't remember which group he was part of.

It just seemed to "ring true", so I have kept it and recently shared it with a new member grieving on CSN, who I also suggested this site to. I may have shared it in my "Rabbit Hole" post also. I'd have to look back through it.

Karen

[MartyT]

Right you are, Karen! I just found the post in the Rabbit Hole thread where you included this beautiful piece. I missed it there, as I was away from the forums when you first joined us and obviously did not read your message carefully enough to appreciate it the first time I saw it there later on. If you ever do discover the identity of the original author, please share that information with us. Meanwhile, I too have copied it and saved it ~ Well worth sharing ~ thank you!

[Wifflesnook]

Thank goodness that Mary came up with the source as I couldn't find it. Thanks Mary. It is so very true.

[mfh]

Karen, I am sorry I did not remember that it was you who posted this and then I think I sent it to Jan but lost track of its origin. I did not mean to invade any privacy surrounding this writing. I am sorry if I offended you...it does not seem from your responses that I did but just so you know.

It is incredible...absolutely incredible.

Mary

[Wifflesnook]

Oh wow. A really good piece of writing just resonates with us, and although I read your earlier posting Karen I hadn't really connected either. It spoke to my heart as it did to all of us. Jan

[mfh]

Mary, I am contacting someone for help today.

Respectfully submitted,

Chris

Thank you for following up and contacting professional help....today. I know we are all counting on you following through for your own sake and your family's sake and everyone's sake...I am glad that you are rethinking this whole thing...at least that is what I hope I am reading between the lines. Chris, we can handle your pain, your anger, your fear, your struggles. What is not acceptable is sarcasm in a group of people who care deeply. and what is not appropriate to deal with here is a plan to suicide without having proper back up. Please do follow up. I will wait to hear about your first meeting if you care to share. Peace to your heart, Mary

[KarenK]

Oh Mary,

No offense taken at all. When I noticed that you referenced csn & "Wolfen", I knew it was me. I just wanted Marty to know that I had no idea who "Wifeless" is. I googled "Unique and Devastating Loss", which he titled it and just noticed that it is referenced on several sites and may have originated on a Young Widow/Widowers site a few years ago.

Hope you are having a good day.

Karen

[mfh]

Oh, good. I tried googling various things also. I imagine it has been all over the net. It is really good. Getting packed up and ready to leave in the morning. Peace, Mary

[kayc]

I only know that wifeless' piece is a gift that keeps on giving, it's circulating and helping others.

Chris, we all understand the anger felt in grief, that's why it's helped us to get grief counseling. Please let us know how it goes.

[boogieman]

Thank you all for your understanding. I did contact someone yesterday but still waiting on a reply. If no reply today I'll try again or try another. For what it's worth, I feel some sense of relief just by reaching out to a professional.

[MartyT]

Good for you, Chris. We are proud of you.

Here's another article I read just now that made me think of you: You Have More Than This Requires ♥

[mfh]

Chris....congratulations...and most exciting is your sense of relief in contacting professional assistance where your pain and healing will be the focus. Peace to your heart, Mary

[boogieman]

I did get a response from the counselor. She is out of town for a week long conference but promises to contact me when she gets back next week. I can wait. In the mean time, I have found a support group that meets on Thursday nights somewhat close to home.

No promises but I will check in on that. We may not be compatible as I don't know anything about them.

Despite my prior comments regarding this, today I got all my legal and financial affairs in order. I feel a sense of relief having all these issues addressed and settled. I just never realized how heavy a burden they had become. Probably trivial to some but monumental to me. My Paula always attended to these matters as she was a paralegal and easy for her. She's teaching. I'm learning!

"Thank You Dear. I Love You Too".

[kayc]

Chris,

I always kept my will up, but things like that took on a new meaning for me when I lost George. I've given my kids my passwords, instructed them where all important documents are, made sure my beneficiary forms are up to date, and updated my will...it does feel like a relief to know that all will be set if something happens to me. My son is exec. of my estate and I know he's capable, but I don't want him to have undue problems with it. Grieving can be a full time job without having to attend to these other matters.

I'm glad you've contacted a counselor and will look into a support group. Can be very helpful!