If You're Going Through Hell

[Margm]

We used to have that many but they have dwindled down a whole lot.  Have a good time, sounds great.  I moved from the "Hot Springs" part of Arkansas back to the swamps.  Do not regret it.  You go to Hot Springs on holiday down here and they are all from Louisiana car tags.

[kayc]

Let us know how it goes, Kevin, I hope it's very special.

[Margm]

Marty, the piece you sent me to read on Religion and Spirituality in Grief  https://www.griefhealingblog.com/2015/03/religion-and-spirituality-in-grief.html   or maybe someone can get it from the place  I put down.  That first letter that was written, it sounds exactly like what I have/would have written.  How ironic is that.  I guess my feelings are not so different from some.

I brought it back to this page because the fellow who had lost his wife after 60+ years, I did not want to sabotage his sorrow any more than I did.  I already put too much on his page and that was very selfish of me. 

This was under (confused) post and I moved it.

There is a video under (confused) post and it needs to be watched.  Thank you Marty.  Sometimes you are "spot on" and I wonder do you have some special power you are not telling us about.  

Okay, I watched it, I even took notes that I can read back.  I usually cannot even read my grocery list.  

"Sit with your angst, breathe, know that this will pass.  At some point you have to stop trying to control it."  In another part it said, what I have always known, "God is not Santa Claus."

It also spoke of us thinking of God as the all controlling parent, and I have, of course.

Cannot find my picture that Mama had to have taken of my being dressed for church, never liked having my picture taken.  But I was about this age with the frizzy red hair that I guess Mama tried to get my hair to do something different than be red.  No one else in the family had flame red hair.  Now, it would be called the sweet word of "ginger" but I think Mama thought either I was cursed, or she was one.  And with my daddy, who was definitely very strict.  Guess he had to be with a fire headed child.  

Thank you Marty, it  explained that sometimes we think of God like our strict overbearing real life father.  And, I did, and most times do, and somehow still have not gotten over my anger, which is  a really new emotion to stay so long.  It will leave.  I think I get angry because I am here and Billy isn't, and  I should be the one gone.

[Gwenivere]

Marg, I am a bit confused.  You say you believe in god yet you keep looking for that faith.  I want to believe but can’t.  Tho I often talk to god which is strange.  It’s horrible what grief and depression can do to ones mind especially after years of being alone.  I got an email from a woman who’s husband has Huntington’s I met at the nursing home.  She is in that void of already being a widow yet having to see him decline. I’ve been there but not for the years she has. She said at a church she goes to the pastor gave out pieces of linen and tearing them in half made her see how devastating this loss has been over the years.  Your whole self ripped in two and no putting it back together as it truly was. You can try stitching it back, but it is still damaged.  

[Margm]

4 hours ago, Gwenivere said:

Marg, I am a bit confused. 

Gwen, you think your confused???  Hey gal, you and I are soul sisters, and you can believe in that.  I cannot say I don't believe, I can say I have to believe because that is what I was taught to believe and I do think I still have faith, how else could I get angry at something I didn't believe in?  It would be like me getting angry at some mythical creature, if I didn't believe.  The things Marty had me watch and read, that first letter written sounds like it was written by me, but it wasn't.  I get so stressed out being the matriarch of this family and I think of Billy telling me if I died when I was so sick that all my worry would be gone and it would be placed on the ones that are left.  He was right.

My granddaughter is going to visit a friend and I have tried to talk myself into going to see my cousin in Michigan.  Clocked it at 900+ miles.  Now, to some people they may think I am too old, but the Billy part of me (I am you and you are me) tells me I can do whatever I want to do.  Of course my kids and sister won't allow it.  I have not discussed it with them.  And anyone reading this will say "oh no, you cannot do that" and all I can think of is "why not?"  True I have a condition and it might take 2-3 days but the motels don't check out till 11:00 a.m. and by that time I "should be good to go."  I say this without telling TMI.  But you all know anyhow.  

Gwen, I have to believe.  I have to  have faith.  It is as small as a mustard seed right now and has been for many moons.  But, I still have it.  You have my heart Gwen.  I might have plenty of questions but I have a promise.  

 

[kayc]

My faith is all I have.  That and my dog keep me going and I know my days with my dog are limited.

[kevin]

I was a bit perplexed with my conviction on organized Religion (the Leaders )and the relationship with Faith.....Once I came to the realization they were separate, it all made sense.........Faith is about what you personally believe. It exists (or not) independently of if you ever tell anyone about your beliefs and independently of whether or not anyone else shares your beliefs. Religion is organized faith. A group of people with similar faith that in some manner share the faith is a religion........ have a good day kevin

[Margm]

One of the first things I remember Mama saying is you cannot argue religion or politics.  Crazy, but my sister blames all her problems on the  republican party.  All my friends are republicans.  And, on Facebook they all spout their positive belief in a system that is about as clear as the Flint, Michigan water problems.  When I first got married Billy would argue religion with my family.  My son wants to argue his religion.  My grandson is lost in the drug jungles of California.  He is now a preacher of some sort.  He wanted to make a pilgrimage back home to save my mother, his great grandmother with his religion.  They were never close.  No one was ever close to my mom.  My son had to tell him he was a couple of years late as she had passed on a couple of years ago.  

I think on this forum we actually respect the right of the person to have religion, whatever that religion might be, or not have religion, we cannot change a lifetime of belief, or no belief, and that is not the reason for the forum.  

I do not know how to put where to go for what Marty sent me to.  But in some strange way it was like she instinctively knew what my heart, my mind, my psyche all were going through.  I don't know how to get to that article other than the settings I put up above.  All she had was Religion and Spirituality in Grief, and it comes from the blog/forum/I don't know what you call these articles but it is Grief Healing: Religion and spirituality in Grief.  and I can underline it but it won't take you there.

The  thing is, it explains a lot of things, even agnosticism.  And some times you can reach the unreachable just by reading, and sometimes you cannot.  It told things you cannot say to a person after death and I thought it interesting that the things you cannot say are the very things you say.  We are only human and we either believe or don't believe.  That is one thing we do have, we do have free will.  As a child I did not have free will.  I wrestle with my faith, but although I get angry, the reason I did not take those 50 morphine pills directly after Billy left was the remnants of my faith, and fear that I would not follow Billy.  Now I can only describe this one person's plight, anyone else, they have to follow their own convictions.  You certainly cannot preach to people that are as lost in grief as we all are.  You have to find whatever builds your own scar tissue.  

 

Okay, thanks to Marty, it will take you there now and if you are confused, I am not going to say you  won't still be confused, but you will know a lot more people are confused also.  

[MartyT]

2 hours ago, Marg M said:

I can underline it but it won't take you there

At the top of the box where you write a post, Marg, where all the edit options appear (i.e., bold, italic, underline, etc.) you'll see an icon that looks like a link in a chain (or like a paperclip, sideways 😉). If you just highlight the text you want to make into a link, then click on that chain-link icon, an option will come up that tells you what to do from there.

[Margm]

21 minutes ago, MartyT said:

At the top of the box where you write a post, Marg, where all the edit options appear (i.e., bold, italic, underline, etc.) you'll see an icon that looks like a link in a chain (or like a paperclip, sideways 😉). If you just highlight the text you want to make into a link, then click on that chain-link icon, an option will come up that tells you what to do from there.

I just printed this out and will paste on computer, I will never remember otherwise.  Thank you.

[TomPB]

In AA we're taught to have a Higher Power, but HP can be anything and tolerance is total. Some have God, some have the group ("GOD = Group Of Drunks"). I've decided my HP is Susan. Also there are plenty of atheist or agnostic members, no problem. There aren't any republicans, so that doesn't come up :). I try to have the same tolerance with grief friends.

[Margm]

I'm sorry Tom, I had to bring in "republicans" because I am a political idiot.  I do not know what all the labels mean, but to me it is a joke to blame a political party for my personal problems.  Some people do, and that I cannot understand, and don't mean to  begin a political statement.  As in all the AA's in the world, I wish for that tolerance and what I believe or do not believe, I have the years of experience, but they were as below.  Sorry for the political words, I really am apolitical, not trying to convert anyone to religion either, just wrestling with my own life, like we all are.

[TomPB]

Marg, I didn't see anything to be sorry about.

[Margm]

Tom, it is me, I always feel guilty when I mention politics.  

[Gwenivere]

Love the Pooh picture, Marg.  It totally says what our lives were like when we were a whole with our love.  

I was very into politics way back when it made sense to me.  These days, the current circumstances, just cause churn my stomach.  I miss it.  Now I just gripe about local issues.  

[Margm]

Thanks Gwen, we just took it for granted it would last forever.

[Gwenivere]

I looked up belief definitions.  I am agnostic.  Torn basically between something I wish I could take a side on and hold onto. 

[Margm]

Gwen, my Billy felt the call to be a Methodist minister and was talking to the minister of the church, then his sister told him about the minister and Billy's mom.  Well, set him back a long time, but when I felt like my faith was lacking, he was always the one to bring the message to me and did not believe I was being punished by God for a mistake I made with the cancer.  He did ask me once why I believed the way I did, and I said I didn't have a choice.  When his good friend was praying holding his hands a few days before his death Billy had tears.  I know where he went, if I know anything at all.  And I have to believe this.

[kayc]

Marg, I didn't get that out of your post either, you just said what someone else thought and most of your friends are republican.  Faith is something personal that no one can do for us, we all work out our own faith...I guess the same can be said for politics too although I'm personally not seeing a whole lot positive about politics.

Kevin, you're right, religion and faith are not one and the same.  I personally get a lot of benefit from my church and the people there, but that's not to say it's perfect or all churches are good, I'd never derive that from it...churches are comprised of people so none of them are perfect, I see it like a family.

[Margm]

I go to a counselor this morning.  He is a Baptist counselor.  I have very mixed feelings about that.  This man has many years experience.......so do I.  My book is too long.  Do I discuss my guilt at the sin I lived and with my Baptist guilt spent many years in psychotherapy.  Do I tell about my sister who is undergoing detox?  Do I talk about my mustard seed faith that has turned into the size of a grain of sand.  I am not a spring chicken anymore.  I visited two shut-in friends yesterday.  One was my dad's sister who shares our family's essential/congenital tremor, do I talk about my friend who secretly drank until her little brain shrank and she is in the nursing home.  My sister has spent the last 15 years falling off the wagon that she spent so much time getting over a younger rehab.  I did not really suspect.  Do I get a tablet of the 10 commandments and flog myself with the many I have broke.  I cannot seek absolution from a stranger, I need prayer to help my own self.  It has left me.  Was Billy right, will the shepherd come looking for this one lost sheep while the other 99 wait to be protected also.  Am I so arrogant that I  think I know more than this counselor because I have more experience?  We will see if I can just let myself go and let God make me give up the job of his I have tried to take over.  I just don't know.  Certainly thinking I might be smarter than he is, that won't work.  Seventy-five years.  Can you possibly imagine how jaded and arrogant a person can get in that amount of time.  Is my shield made of wax or steel.  Maybe I have to just shut up.  "I'm not that important, life does go on, if I was not here, then I'd be gone."

[Gwenivere]

8 hours ago, Marg M said:

 "I'm not that important, life does go on, if I was not here, then I'd be gone.'

We are a tangled web of issues, Marg.  You’re probably done with your session as it is later in the day there.  The line you wrote above would be the best thing to say and see where it leads.  All the issues can’t be covered in an hour, but I did once write all mine down for my counselor so they knew about the history that brought me there.  I’m not even sure some ever needed to be discussed as others were put in perspective and kinda solved them.  Now when I go, I have a few key words to remind me of what I need help with right now.  Grief is always the  underlying issue without even saying, my counselor knows that.  Before Steve died it was issues much easier to solve.  That changed everything, down to simplest things like how I drink water.  Well, maybe not that, but I think you will get my point.  I don’t know what prompted you to start seeing someone, but I do hope it helps because I know I cannot handle this massive change that affects the rest of my life, such as it will be.  Let us know how it went if you care to share.  

[Margm]

Gwen, I wrote that silly little ditty back in 1982.  Yes, I have had troubles even back that far.  Worries that Billy got so tired of me worrying about.  I do have the DNA kit I have to send off because I know since I cannot be Native American and instead have to be one of the ancestors that came over here and took it away from the native people.  I just figure one of those people was a Jewish woman that worried all the time.  Nothing against Jewish people except that supposedly is what they do, worry a lot, and somehow when my brain wears out into cold ash, there will be some minute part still worrying.  He was a nice fellow and sincere but it went like I figured it would and honestly, when it comes down to it, we have to handle our own problems.  My mustard seed faith did not grow any bigger, but I am a little more proud of it than I was so that is an improvement.  I will never get over feeling guilty for my sister's problems, even though it was her personal choice and right now I want to rush over there and do something..........what?  Interfere? (I can't anyhow).  Like I said, I think God demoted me and told me to quit trying to take his job away from him.  You know, if I was in the middle of the ocean, I would drown.  I know you all have that feeling too.  And, I need the outlook of the man who cried because he had no shoes and then he saw the man with no feet.  Sometimes I am too human.  And then, what else am I supposed to be?  I will find my answers in reading Marty's offerings.  they have helped more than anything.  That doctor who gave me the antidepressants, with me trying to beg off, she did not listen to a word I had to say.  The #1 side effect was constipation and old people cannot take what I could have taken at 40.  Sometimes, you really do just have to help yourself.  I'm trying.

[kayc]

How did the session go, Marg?  I shy away from preacher-counselors because my experience with them has been they aren't trained/qualified counselors, there are professional Christian counselors if one wants that perspective, but I've seen some horrible "counseling" come from ministers.  It's important to be aware of what you're good at and what you're limited with!  True for doctors too!

Personally, I think you're pretty self-aware and insightful and contain answers for yourself within.    Lots of times you answer your own questions as you talk your way through it.  Listen to those answers.  Mustard seed faith is all you need to get started, we're all working on our faith, it's a little by little process.

You don't need to "confess" to a person, they're as fallible as you, as any of us, we're all human, we've all made mistakes.  Leave the confessing to go to the one who is perfect who can both forgive, give absolution, and direct you. Us humans have our hands full working on ourselves!

Too human?  I guess we all are, but it's all we've been so all we know.

[Margm]

I remember somewhere writing about "a pill" as the answer to my problems.  I did used to look for "a pill" to cure my problem, but actually, how do you cure the biggest problem and that is your own self.  You cannot find one.  I used to go the pill route.  I went the psychoanalysis route for many years, and your right, I am the only one aware of my problem and honestly, just like all of us, talking out the problem helps some people.  Yesterday I was testing my faith.  Do you really test your own faith?  I think not.  You either have it, or you don't.  I've always known I  had faith but going into the multi-faith chapel with Billy dying, somehow I felt God could not walk in with me.  That, other than Billy's death, was one of my most traumatic events.  There are debates against this and for this and I am actually not worried about other people's feelings in something like this.  I don't want to sound so totally selfish, I think selfish is not in my vocabulary, but in this case, I am in search of a feeling.  I once had that feeling and I will know when I have it again.  I just hope my big behind will let me get off my knees when it hits me.  No, he didn't really help, but somehow what I was searching for was something only I will find the answers to.  Just like the pill, I have to find my own direction.  I already knew that.  Thank you Kay, I think you understand me.  Actually, I think you all do.

[Gwenivere]

6 hours ago, Marg M said:

 how do you cure the biggest problem and that is your own self.  

I am in search of a feeling.  I once had that feeling and I will know when I have it again.  

I didn’t realize this was a Christian counseling experience.  I know that wouldn’t work for me.

I find myself the problem because I am so changed into someone I don’t know.  I so want to be that content and living life without having to search for reasons why.  They just were there.  How interact with people is so drastically changed.  I’ve always been an empathic person, but now finding I don’t care about some others struggles disturbs me.  I think it is because the little (to me) things people complain about are just that and will have an end.  Just as mine used to.  So yes, my biggest problem is me and you put into words what I have been trying to for a very long time.

i don’t know what feeling I am in  search for, but it’s definitely not any of the ones I have now.  So many I’d like to throw away and feel something good again, so I guess that’s it.  I truly don’t know what that feels like.  Each day brings another challenge.  Today is the worst leg pain ever and I don’t know how I will make it thru the day.  How nice it would be to, instead, decide on what to have for dinner and look forward to it.  

Im tired of searching.  I just want to feel I’m living.  The rest took care of itself.